I don't understand - Conditioning...

[madpiano]

Hello

I make all my soaps at 5% SF (as per soapcalc). I only just started making soap and I am still playing around with recipes and processes. I made several batches, but 2 stand out. They both have nice bubbles, one more so than the other. BF prefers what I will call Soap 2, I prefer the bubbles from Soap 1. So far so good. But I find Soap 2 very drying whereas Soap 1 is very mild, not drying and leaves my skin really really smooth. I would like to understand why, as it makes no sense, reagrding everything else I have read on this board.

Soap 1 - oven-hot-process - made 15/01/2009

32% Coconut
12% Canola
30% Lard
24% Olive

Added 10ml Vanilla FO (carrier Oil was sweet almond) after the cook (works out at 1% of total oils)

This one bubbles nice, not too creamy, but good enough and as said above is really nice on the skin. Vanilla Scent didn't last long, it just has a nice, barely detectable sweet smell to it.

Soap 2 - CP, ungelled - Made 08/01/2009

25% Coconut
43% Lard
14% Olive
16% Castor Oil

This one has the perfect creamy bubblyness. Added 12g of EOs (proper ones) which works out at 2% of total oils. But it dries my skin out. It cleans very well. BF used it after fixing a bike chain and he had no troubles getting the grease off the skin.

According to everything I read about coconut oil, the first soap should be the drying one. The second one should be better. But it's the other way round which bamboozles me. Is it just too early to use the CP soap and the HP soap is better cured ?

Is Lard a drying ingredient ? It would be a shame, as it is my cheapest oils and from what I read it is supposed to make nice soap ? The second Soap contains a lot more Lard. I know the Castor Oil makes the nice bubbles, but it is really hard to get round here, so I am not using it very often.

Cheers
Any help appreciated
Sabine

 

[carebear]

Any soap is technically drying - it's job is to remove oils. The "conditioning" number actually refers to a soaps INability to cleanse LOL. You can dramatically improve the "conditioning" quality of a soap by simply increasing the superfat/lye discount.

I would expect the second one to be more cleansing due to the decreased amount of olive oil. Coconut is the most cleansing of your oils, but lard would be second IMO, with canola third and olive fourth.

If you have a soap you really like the qualities of but want it a bit less drying try upping the superfat to 7%. With canola in it I woudn't go any higher than that as it's a DOS-prone oil. In the second recipe without canola you can go as high as 10% IME.

 

[Lindy]

Castor is also very drying.....when I use Castor I use it at a very small percentage.

 

[surf girl]

FYI, in neither recipe do the percentages add up to 100% (both are short 2%).

If you look at soapcalc's tab about "soap qualities", you can check out the properties of each of the fatty acids from various oils.

Coconut is high in lauric and myristic (67% combined), both cleansing FAs, which, as carebear pointed out, will be drying. It is relatively low in ricinoleic, oleic , linoleic and linolenic (10% combined), which are the conditioning oils.

Lard is 46% oleic and 6% linoleic (52% combined). It is only 1% myristic.

Olive is a whopping 83% combined conditioning fatty acids, and castor oil comes in at a pretty stunning 98% conditioning; canola is 91%.

Given all this, and your oil percentages, I can't figure out at all why soap 2 would be more drying than soap 1.

I adjusted the percentage deficit by adding 2% to the lard qtty for both recipes, and for #1 on soapcalc, you have:
#1 21% cleansing, 50% conditioning
#2 17% cleansing, 52% conditioning

So, beats me. At 4 weeks post-soaping, you should have adequate cure.

 

[Lindy]

Really? I had always understood castor in large quantities to be drying - perhaps that was in it unsaponified form - need to go back and re-check my info. Surf Girl thanks!

 

[carebear]

the soap qualities in the calculators are not the "be all and end all". I've learned time and again that while they are ok for guidance, it's soaping and trying your soaps that will teach you the most. plus I DO feel there are somehow (don't know why) synergistic effects from combinations of oils as well.

I've never used castor in quantities significant enough to judge the impact on my skin, and I'm not even sure I buy that it's so lather-producing either. It is "drawing" or drying when used straight for skin cleansing though.

 

[Lindy]

I think that was what I was working from - I do know for sure that it is drying when used as a skin cleanser and depending on the type of skin you have will determine the % of castor in the cleanser - so I have probably transferred that info to my soaps.

When I check SoapMaker, which is my bible, it says that castor in soap is 7.2 moisturizing compared to Olive @ 9.5 so I truly do stand corrected here. I have never used it more than at 2% and then just for the extra lather....

 

[surf girl]

the soap qualities in the calculators are not the "be all and end all". I've learned time and again that while they are ok for guidance, it's soaping and trying your soaps that will teach you the most.

Tell me about it, sister. The whole olive oil hardness thing is one thing that is way out of whack.

Good to remember.

 

[carebear]

And soapcalc has lard as not cleansing at all, but we know THAT's not true!! Heck, I make my stain stick out of it!

 

[Lindy]

Oh yeah I have some castille from about 4 months ago which needed cutting - shattered - totally shattered and it was done at a 5% SF instead of my usual 8%. It is such an amazing soap but I have soooo much trouble doing "just" a straight Castille or Bastille.... 8)

 

[madpiano]

Thanks all for the answers. I never guessed it was the Castor Oil.

The percentages didn't quite add up, because I didn't include the bit's after the comma. Sorry

I didn't include INC numbers from soapcalc as there both soaps look good. I was just surprised that the 30% coconut soap was less drying than the 25% coconut soap.

As we live in a hard water area I am not keen on Castille. I made one and it is yucky and slimy. I made it with 100% Olive Pomace and urgh. I hate using it.

I think I will stick to Soap Recipe 1 for my future soaps and just up the SF for winter. If I make it HP I can always keep some coconut oil back and add it after the cook.

 

[carebear]

I personally dont believe the castor will make it drying, tho at 16% it could make your soap sticky and soft.

Castile... it's nature is to be slimy even in soft water. A cure period of 4 months+ will help enormously if you let it dry completely between uses.