HP Tips

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m looking for tips for getting a fluid HP soap. I hoping to recreate better versions of a couple of HP soaps I made when I first started making soap, but I’ve been making CP soaps for months now and I need to refresh on HP.

I used the crockpot method and added orange wax to one of the batches at the end as a SF. I also made one that had an orange wax SF portion of the soap batter “swirled” with a cocoa butter SF portion of the soap batter. The mixed batch was small and I gave it all away to my family/testers. I moved on to CP soap so I could have more control of how the soap is manipulated. I just tested orange wax in CP soap this weekend and did not get the nice orangey scent I was hoping for (more on that here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/orange-peel-wax.75139/). The piece of HP orange wax soap I still have smells wonderful so I’m thinking I will make HP again.

I was not taking super great notes in the beginning, but here’s what I remember about making HP soap:

• 25% lye
• sodium lactate or yogurt at the end increases fluidity (I read this after I made my HP soaps, which were not very fluid)
• Crockpot on low
• Keep the crockpot covered with plastic wrap to keep the moisture in
• Don’t stir until the end in order to avoid ending up with a lot of dry soap on the sides of the crockpot (although as I recall, some people like to stir)
• Let it get about 3/4 gelled and then “take it off the heat” to keep it from going too far

If anyone has any improvements or corrections and is willing to share, I would be most appreciative.

 

[bohunk]

I make a pretty fluid HP. I use my oven, not crock-pot but its pretty much the same process. What I do is this:
-I use the full amount of water recommended for my lye water- 6 oz for 1 pd. of soap and 12 oz for 2 pounds of soap.
-After the cook I add in 1 additional ounce of liquid per pound of soap and .5 oz sodium lactate per pound of soap.

For me that makes my soap pour-able, not plop-able.

 

[msunnerstood]

I HP and I soap higher, between 190 and 200. I use full water but I also add plain yogurt after the cook at 1 tablespoon per pound of oils.
There is a debate on plastic wrap vs. non plastic wrap. I dont use it because i soap high temp and the batter will rise quickly. I also stir often so the heat is distributed well. I think the biggest block to getting fluidity is cooking too long. Mine is usually zap free as soon as it comes back together after the applesauce phase. Ive never cooked it longer than 30 minutes, most often its closer to 20.

 

[Dawni]

Sounds like how I used to do it, with some changes of the last couple of months...

I was gonna write this post regardless of you asking for tips but may I point you to it? It's rather long and rambling, sorry, but I consolidate all I know in that post lol hope it helps you some.

 

[bohunk]

I should add that my oven temp is 180F and soap cooks for 45 minutes.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

@bohunk , @msunnerstood , @Dawni Thank You! This is all very helpful and I really appreciate you sharing with me.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

This is linked above, but not in a very obvious way, so I’m linking it again because it’s full of good tips!

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/latest-soaps-and-hp-fluidity-lessons.75193/#post-771822

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not much for making HP soap, but I've done some small batches to say I know enough to do it. I tried sodium lactate in a batch and I tried yogurt. Yogurt won hands down for making the soap more fluid and easier to handle. About 1 tablespoon ppo stirred in at the end of the cook seemed to work well.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I'm not much for making HP soap, but I've done some small batches to say I know enough to do it. I tried sodium lactate in a batch and I tried yogurt. Yogurt won hands down for making the soap more fluid and easier to handle. About 1 tablespoon ppo stirred in at the end of the cook seemed to work well.

I saw the soap you made for the Sous Vide Challenge and loved it. I’m not sure if that qualifies as HP, but it seems similar. I will definitely try yogurt. Does it matter what kind? I tend to buy thick Greek yogurt and especially like plain Fage. Does the fat content matter? I’m reasoning that thinner yogurt with 0% fat would be best if it’s the water or milk content that helps the fluidity.

 

[earlene]

It's the lactic acid that helps. Plain is fine, fruity flavors are okay as long as there are not bits of fruit or seeds. Brand does not matter. Expensive yogurt is wasted in soap, IMO, because I'd rather eat it, but I have used it when it was all I had in the fridge.

 

[DeeAnna]

I saw the soap you made for the Sous Vide Challenge and loved it. I’m not sure if that qualifies as HP, but it seems similar. I will definitely try yogurt. Does it matter what kind? I tend to buy thick Greek yogurt and especially like plain Fage. Does the fat content matter? I’m reasoning that thinner yogurt with 0% fat would be best if it’s the water or milk content that helps the fluidity.

I really like how that soap turned out -- I'm glad you like it too!

I define HP soap as soap that is fully saponified before being put into a mold, so IMO the sous vide method is just as much an HP method as crock pot HP or oven HP or whatever other flavors of HP are out there. Some people put plastic wrap tightly over their crockpot to reduce evaporation which is pretty much the same thing as sous vide HP in a plastic bag.

Anyways, however you define HP, I don't think the type of yogurt matters. I don't do fat-free yogurt -- hate the stuff -- so I'm sure I used either low or full fat regular yogurt. Greek would also be fine.

 

[Dawni]

It's the lactic acid that helps. Plain is fine, fruity flavors are okay as long as there are not bits of fruit or seeds. Brand does not matter. Expensive yogurt is wasted in soap, IMO, because I'd rather eat it, but I have used it when it was all I had in the fridge.

Correct. I've tried all those lol.. Leftover greek yogurt (my toddler loves it), raspberry flavored, low fat, non fat, full fat, plain sweetened, plain regular... What I've been meaning to see if it'll work is a more liquid yogurt drink. That's next on my list.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’m back... My intended dive into HP soap last May was aborted when the orange wax scent reappeared in the soap I mentioned at the beginning this thread. I think I’m finally ready to give HP a serious go, but for different reasons. The flightier EOs are calling and I also want to make a style of soap that I think will be most easily achieved using HP. Reading back through this thread I have to say thank you all for the great tips and the linked thread. I’m going to study every detail carefully before I go near the crock pot. I also have a few more questions that I don’t think were addressed above. For CP soaps I’m currently in love with a GW415 soy wax @ 20-25% based recipe that has RBO and a little Shea in it, but also have a lard/tallow-based recipe and a butter-based recipe that I like. I would like to start with the soy wax recipe unless there is a reason not to. Should I be aiming for anything specific in a recipe, like a particular amount of stearic and palmitic FAs, or do I have free rein to try my existing recipes as long as I adjust the total liquid for HP? I’ve been inching up to higher and higher lye concentration for CP and know I will need more water for HP. My current recipes are calculated as low SF, typically 2% w/o a lye purity correction. ED, where I buy the lye, states that it’s minimum 96%, but more commonly 98% pure, which would put my actual SF in the 4-6% range. I’ve been considering dropping the calculated lye to 1% for CP as another line of defense against DOS. Does anyone make HP with a low SF or think there’s a reason not to? Actually, I just re-read Dawnii’s thread and the comment about the SF added at the end increasing fluidity. Maybe I should plan on a little extra SF for now.

 

[szaza]

I've used basically any recipe in HP without trouble (beeswax, butters, high oleic..) I do have a hunch soft oil recipes give slightly more fluid soap (or at least, that I need to add less water after cook to get more fluid soap), but I'm not entirely sure about it.
One thing that I've learned is that adding more yoghurt doesn't make for more fluid soap. 1 tablespoon ppo (+-) is enough. Add the rest of your liquid after this (I generally soap at 33% lye concentration and add one more part of lye at the end to get a final lye concentration of 25%) If I really want super fluid HP I add my tincture after this and don't subtract the liquid from it (which makes for pretty warpy soaps, so I try to plane/bevel later in the curing stage)
My superfat is most commonly around 3% without correction for lye purity, so I think you should be ok. I haven't noticed increased fluidity from added superfat, but haven't used it much lately either
Hope this answers some of your questions!

 

[Dawni]

I rarely go beyond 2-4% SF up front anymore, and it's all still added after the cook. Helps just a bit, but still mostly depends on your recipe and water amount. I can't say how much actual SF I have, accounting for lye purity and my staple coconut milk, maybe closer to 5-8% but some of my recipes with just 1% SF are quite nice too.

I've been trying less n less water to minimize warping after cure. My rice soap for example uses 2.8:1 water when I want color and nice swirls and it still warps a bit. The plain(ish) usual soap I make uses just 2.6:1 and it's still fairly fluid with only 28% lard. My 60% lard recipe didn't warp as badly when I use 3:1 water, like I did with a couple of challenge soaps. My triple butter soap with no lard currently uses 2.8:1 as well but it still warped badly that I had to plane it so I'm gonna try less water. Unfortunately, it's all trial n error with your own recipes lol

My additives affect fluidity too. Red clay, more than the other colors thicken up even already cooked batter, like charcoal. Zinc oxide helps with fluidity. Any of my oil infused colorants added hot after the cook keep the batter fairly fluid too. Of course, it could be different for you.

I've not tried soy wax in HP yet but its been on my to do list. I haven't been too keen since I've not still found pure soy wax. The 444 I used in CP once got DOS pretty quickly.

I haven't paid much notice if any EOs affect the fluidity of the batter. I assume that if there are additives that thicken batter the same should go for EOs but I could be completely wrong, or maybe it's the small amount I use, which is less than even what I've read others use for HP.

Oh, and I noticed the more water you add after cook increases warping so I use most of my water up front. That theory still needs testing though lol

I wonder if I should update that post of mine.....

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have coconut milk, SL and yogurt. I also have infused colorants, tinctures and clay soaked in tinctures . I forgot that I have the option of adding colorants in alcohol and just re-read the @szaza experiments in this thread on using tinctures in HP and the thread about using clay soaked in tinctures, here. I’m going to start with my soy wax recipe, with a little added SF from coconut milk, a tad more SF oil at the end so I can see what it does, and will hold water back to adjust fluidity with HOT water the end (with some sugar?) aiming for a final recipe lye concentration of 25% to 28%. I should probably start with a one color soap . @Dawni I will keep my eye open for any updates to your thread. My confidence is going up, but y’all have set a high bar (haha).

 

[szaza]

My first HP looked like baby poop so don't worry
Just wanted to add my clay soaked in tincture was a CP soap.. don't know yet what it'll do in HP (though I don't expect a big difference)
If you're using clays in HP, be sure to make a slurry with some water, or else they will make for a clumpy brittle batter that's hard to mold and hard to cut (my second HP)
I personally haven't used sugar after cook, but I've read it makes for brighter colors when using micas. Don't know if that also works for plant colorants (I forgot I wanted to try that.. have been too busy with tinctures)

Happy soaping!

(Ps. @Dawni I add a tiny bit of alcohol to my charcoal before mixing it in HP and haven't noticed it thickening)

 

[Dawni]

Baby poop was mine too... It's here on the forum lol Next attempt was better but not by so much. At least it wasn't crumbly n sticky at the same time lol

I have a very good example of extreme warping using 3:1 water but I'll show you tomorrow coz my son's asleep where that soap is hehe

Thanks for the tip @szaza. I've been meaning to get myself ethanol since I first read that post of yours but things got in the way lol

 

[szaza]

For charcoal isopropanol will work as well if you happen to have it (it's just stinkier than ethanol)

 

[GML]

Question for the HP soapers: Do you add the clay before of after the cook? I add kaolin clay to the oils before adding the lye liquid.