HP Pine Tar added at the end?

[Nicolesica]

Question—I was talking the other day with an elderly lady who says she never used to account for the lye in pine tar soap because she added the pine tar at the end of the cook.

So I looked it up and can only find this. For those who have made pine tar soap (I have not), does this seem safe to you? I’ve been putting off making pine tar because it seems like such a pain, but this is adding some interest for me. Grandma's Pine Tar 10-Minute Hot Process Soap

 

[Nicolesica]

Thank you!!
I have waaaay too many soapy projects and not enough time, but I am really excited to try this. I’ll send pics when I make my first batch, of course!

 

[AliOop]

Question—I was talking the other day with an elderly lady who says she never used to account for the lye in pine tar soap because she added the pine tar at the end of the cook.

So I looked it up and can only find this. For those who have made pine tar soap (I have not), does this seem safe to you? I’ve been putting off making pine tar because it seems like such a pain, but this is adding some interest for me. Grandma's Pine Tar 10-Minute Hot Process Soap

Pine tar doesn't saponify, because it contains no fatty acids. However, it does contain one or more substances that will neutralize some of the lye. In a good soap calculator, you can see that in the small adjustment to the lye amount if you include the pine-tar as a pre-cook "oil."

So in that way, pine tar is similar to citric acid, vinegar, lemon juice, etc. If you add it to soap batter that still contains lye, it will "eat up" some of your lye and thus increase your superfat. However, by adding it post-cook to a zap-free batch of HP soap, it appears that you would eliminate that possibility. So to answer your question, yes, that is perfectly safe, and honestly a good idea, IMO.

If I were going to add pine tar post-cook, I would heat it up to at least the same temp as the soap batter, if not hotter. That will help you keep it all fluid for the ten seconds needed to stir it in thoroughly and hopefully mold it before it hardens too much. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

PS - I've read somewhere (Kevin Dunn, maybe?) that it is possible for lye molecules to rearrange themselves even post-cook, detaching from certain oils and attaching to others. But that's way over my pay grade, so I won't comment any further on that.

 

[Nicolesica]

Pine tar doesn't saponify, because it contains no fatty acids. However, it does contain one or more substances that will neutralize some of the lye. In a good soap calculator, you can see that in the small adjustment to the lye amount if you include the pine-tar as a pre-cook "oil."

So in that way, pine tar is similar to citric acid, vinegar, lemon juice, etc. If you add it to soap batter that still contains lye, it will "eat up" some of your lye and thus increase your superfat. However, by adding it post-cook to a zap-free batch of HP soap, it appears that you would eliminate that possibility. So to answer your question, yes, that is perfectly safe, and honestly a good idea, IMO.

If I were going to add pine tar post-cook, I would heat it up to at least the same temp as the soap batter, if not hotter. That will help you keep it all fluid for the ten seconds needed to stir it in thoroughly and hopefully mold it before it hardens too much. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

PS - I've read somewhere (Kevin Dunn, maybe?) that it is possible for lye molecules to rearrange themselves even post-cook, detaching from certain oils and attaching to others. But that's way over my pay grade, so I won't comment any further on that.

Thank you for that! Yes, as soon as I get some of the stuff off my plate I do believe I’m going to try this out. I hear pine tar soap is good for eczema and psoriasis, so may be useful to a couple people I know.
As always, thank you so much

 

[Nicolesica]

@AliOop i made the recipe this afternoon and so far, am very pleased with it. I didn’t get any crazy acceleration, was able to mold it easily and even make a pillowy top with a spoon.
However, I just imagined pine tar smelled like, well, pine. Imagine my surprise when I opened that can and it smelled like watered down shellac. Lol
I added some sandalwood, fir needle and lavender to mellow it out a bit.
I’ll cut it tomorrow and fingers crossed I did it right!

 

[AliOop]

However, I just imagined pine tar smelled like, well, pine. Imagine my surprise when I opened that can and it smelled like watered down shellac. Lol
I added some sandalwood, fir needle and lavender to mellow it out a bit.

Some folks say pine tar smells like a camp to them; it smells like fresh road paving to me. Your scent blend sounds lovely! I used an EO mix of chamomile, pine, and lavender, and it worked well, so I'm sure yours will, too!

 

[Nicolesica]

Uh oh.
Went to unmold it and it’s soft as taffy.

 

[DeeAnna]

I was kind of wondering if that would happen when you add pine tar after the cook. Pine tar makes the soap slightly softer even when I use a recipe that makes a firm soap and add the PT up front so it reacts with the lye directly. Pine tar added at the beginning almost guarantees the soap will go into gel and that helps ensure the soap loaf will be firm.

Since you did HP and added the PT after the cook, it may be you'll have to wait awhile longer until the soap firms up.

I checked the recipe at the Ultimate HP Soap website. If that's the recipe you used, there's plenty of palm oil in it for firmness, so it shouldn't be a physically soft soap unless there are other factors causing the softness. The other elements of the recipe look fine -- My personal soap recipe c@lc tells me the recipe is designed for about 3% superfat if I include the pine tar as a "fat" in the calculations, and the lye concentration (not water as % of oils) is about 34%.

 

[Nicolesica]

I was kind of wondering if that would happen when you add pine tar after the cook. Pine tar makes the soap slightly softer even when I use a recipe that makes a firm soap and add the PT up front so it reacts with the lye directly. Pine tar added at the beginning almost guarantees the soap will go into gel and that helps ensure the soap loaf will be firm.

Since you did HP and added the PT after the cook, it may be you'll have to wait awhile longer until the soap firms up.

I checked the recipe at the Ultimate HP Soap website. If that's the recipe you used, there's plenty of palm oil in it for firmness, so it shouldn't be a physically soft soap unless there are other factors causing the softness. The other elements of the recipe look fine -- My personal soap recipe c@lc tells me the recipe is designed for about 3% superfat if I include the pine tar as a "fat" in the calculations, and the lye concentration (not water as % of oils) is about 34%.

I think I was too eager and added the pine tar before the soap had completed saponification. I’ve not done HP before, so this has been an awesome learning experience.
So, I added yesterdays batch to the crock pot, accounting for the amount of lye PT uses up from an HP recipe o found online and then re-made another batch and mixed it all together. So, basically doubled the recipe.
Melted everything, added the lye and SB’ed until it got too thick to SB anymore.
Currently I have it covered in the crockpot (no heat on—like in her video) and it is the consistency of thick caramel. It doesn’t look like the lady’s batch on the video, though—it’s much smoother and doesn’t have the separated looking bits.
I’m hoping it will harden up like in her video and then I’ll add the pine tar again. If not, I don’t what I’ll do next to try and save it.
I really hope I didn’t fudge this—after the EO’s are added and it mellows out some, I’m really loving the smell of it.

 

[Nicolesica]

I was kind of wondering if that would happen when you add pine tar after the cook. Pine tar makes the soap slightly softer even when I use a recipe that makes a firm soap and add the PT up front so it reacts with the lye directly. Pine tar added at the beginning almost guarantees the soap will go into gel and that helps ensure the soap loaf will be firm.

Since you did HP and added the PT after the cook, it may be you'll have to wait awhile longer until the soap firms up.

I checked the recipe at the Ultimate HP Soap website. If that's the recipe you used, there's plenty of palm oil in it for firmness, so it shouldn't be a physically soft soap unless there are other factors causing the softness. The other elements of the recipe look fine -- My personal soap recipe c@lc tells me the recipe is designed for about 3% superfat if I include the pine tar as a "fat" in the calculations, and the lye concentration (not water as % of oils) is about 34%.

I think I was too eager and added the pine tar before the soap had completed saponification. I’ve not done HP before, so this has been an awesome learning experience.
So, I added yesterdays batch to the crock pot, accounting for the amount of lye PT uses up from an HP recipe o found online and then re-made another batch and mixed it all together. So, basically doubled the recipe.
Melted everything, added the lye and SB’ed until it got too thick to SB anymore.
Currently I have it covered in the crockpot (no heat on—like in her video) and it is the consistency of thick caramel. It doesn’t look like the lady’s batch on the video, though—it’s much smoother and doesn’t have the separated looking bits.
I’m hoping it will harden up like in her video and then I’ll add the pine tar again. If not, I don’t what I’ll do next to try and save it.
I really hope I didn’t fudge this—after the EO’s are added and it mellows out some, I’m really loving the smell of it.

 

[Nicolesica]

I think I was too eager and added the pine tar before the soap had completed saponification. I’ve not done HP before, so this has been an awesome learning experience.
So, I added yesterdays batch to the crock pot, accounting for the amount of lye PT uses up from an HP recipe o found online and then re-made another batch and mixed it all together. So, basically doubled the recipe.
Melted everything, added the lye and SB’ed until it got too thick to SB anymore.
Currently I have it covered in the crockpot (no heat on—like in her video) and it is the consistency of thick caramel. It doesn’t look like the lady’s batch on the video, though—it’s much smoother and doesn’t have the separated looking bits.
I’m hoping it will harden up like in her video and then I’ll add the pine tar again. If not, I don’t what I’ll do next to try and save it.
I really hope I didn’t fudge this—after the EO’s are added and it mellows out some, I’m really loving the smell of it.

Omg. I just watched the video and sound like a dragon breathing. Haha

 

[Nicolesica]

So anyway, I turned the heat back on and decided to cook it a bit more. I’m thinking this was a very bad video for me to try HP on.. lol.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm not quite sure what is going on with your batch. It shouldn't behave so oddly, even allowing for the pine tar. I hope it eventually works out for you!

 

[Nicolesica]

With the pine tar added. I’m afraid to cook any longer, so going to let it cool a bit before molding it.

 

[Nicolesica]

I'm not quite sure what is going on with your batch. It shouldn't behave so oddly, even allowing for the pine tar. I hope it eventually works out for you!

Whelp, hopefully it’s not a complete mess. Smells delightful though.

 

[Nicolesica]

Sigh. As it cools… it looks like it’s separating. Thoughts?

 

[Nicolesica]

Sigh. As it cools… it looks like it’s separating. Thoughts?

Nevermind. I blended the heck out of it and plopped it into molds—was definitely firmer but not as firm as the how-to video, but didn’t separate so I’m hopeful. For a 10 minute tar soap, this took all day long. Up to the soap gods now, I’m tired.

 

[Ephemerella]

Watching your saga unfold has been simultaneously riveting and terrifying , and I have zero help or words of wisdom.... but I do know you are one patient and determined individual and that I will probably never attempt pine tar soap myself after seeing this (although PTS was fantastic for my old horse's legs when he got chiggers). Just amazed by your stick-with-it-ness. I hope it works out!

 

[Nicolesica]

Watching your saga unfold has been simultaneously riveting and terrifying , and I have zero help or words of wisdom.... but I do know you are one patient and determined individual and that I will probably never attempt pine tar soap myself after seeing this (although PTS was fantastic for my old horse's legs when he got chiggers). Just amazed by your stick-with-it-ness. I hope it works out!

Omg I needed that. Haha.. thank you. I’m stubborn and now I’m stubborn and tired—but that made me laugh and I needed it today. Thank you

 

[AliOop]

Those pics did look like separation to me, in which case, you did the right thing: SB it back together and get it into the mold.

But I have to confess, you lost me on the rebatching / batch-combining part of the saga. Hopefully you now have your feet up to enjoy the evening, and tomorrow, you will have PT soap.