How to make TetraEDTA in 39% solution

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emi

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I've already learned from reading other posts that I can not use EDTA Disodium in place of Tetradisodium EDTA. I'm going to order Tetrasodium EDTA and return the Disodium EDTA. But I noticed it comes in dry form. The recipe I'm using calls for "Tetra EDTA in 39% solution". I just wanted to make sure here. I combine 39% of the water weight to make this correct? So if I have 100g of distilled water, I should dissolve 39g EDTA into it, correct? (NOT 39% EDTA 61% water)

This is the recipe I'm doing. IrishLass's Creamy Shea/Cocoa Liquid Soap. I'm done with the paste stage and going to put it in the fridge until my EDTA and meadowfoam oil arrives! https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/my-creamy-cocoa-shea-gls-tutorial.57974/
 
Dissolve 39 grams of EDTA in 61 grams of distilled water to make 100 grams of 39% EDTA solution.

Concentration % = EDTA wt / (EDTA wt + water wt) X 100 = 39 / (39 + 61) X 100 = 39 / 100 X 100 = 39%

***

If you dissolved 39 grams of EDTA in 100 grams of water, your solution concentration would be --

Concentration % = EDTA wt / (EDTA wt + water wt) X 100 = 39 / (39 + 100) X 100 = 39 / 139 X 100 = 28%
 
Disodium EDTA can be converted into Tetrasodium EDTA by reacting the Di with NaOH or other strong alkali. I strongly suspect it's as simple as measuring the correct amount of powdered Di and adding it to your lye solution. Di won't dissolve in plain water like Tetra will, but it should dissolve in lye solution and react with the NaOH to form Tetra.

I haven't done the calculations, so I don't have solid numbers at the moment about how much Di to use and how much NaOH it will consume as it converts to Tetra. Here's a link to what appears to be some reputable although not very detailed advice -- https://chemistscorner.com/cosmetic...-to-formulate-tetrasodium-edta-and-etidronate

I can do the math and get some numbers for you, but I'd need someone to test the practical use of Di for me, since I don't have any on hand. (Or someone to send me a small sample.) In particular, I'd want to know how well it dissolves in NaOH solution. Does it clump up on the top and is fiddly to get stirred into the lye? Does it need to be stirred a lot to dissolve once it is mixed into the lye liquid? Does it take a lot of time? Is there any great amount of heating from the reaction? Or is it dump in and swirl a bit and easy-peasy you're done?

edit:
Okay, I worked through the math. It looks like you want to use essentially the same weight of Di as you would Tetra. For example, if I normally use 5 g Tetra per 1000 g oil, I'd do the same for Di -- add 5 g Di per 1000 g oil.

The (very small) catch to using Di is every 5 grams of Di will consume about 1 g NaOH. We use so little EDTA in soap that you might not feel the need to adjust for this -- it's such a tiny error. If you're a geek like me, however, you Want To Know These Things so you can decide. ;)

So for those folks who have Disodium EDTA in their soaping pantries, now's the time to put your mad scientist hat on and try it. Please tell me if there are any tips or tricks to using Di. Remember -- it won't happily dissolve in plain water, but from what I can tell, it will dissolve in the strong alkali solutions we normally use to make soap. Would someone give it a try and report back?

I'll add this information to the EDTA article I have on my Soapy Stuff section. That way others can benefit from this insight.
 
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Thank you, @Misschief!

I'm hoping maybe SaltedFig, GalaxyMLP, or someone else with a chemistry and math background will doublecheck my thinking. I think I've got the numbers straight, but it never hurts to get a second opinion.
 
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You can also make a 50% EDTA solution if you prefer. Makes the math easier in the long run. I wrote about this awhile back: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/yes-virginia-you-can-make-a-50-edta-solution.62761/

Thank you DeeAnna for answering my question! I'm so glad I asked. I thought it was like bread hydration where the EDTA was 39% of the water. I've never dealt with EDTA and from what I've read so far, it sounds like a great thing to put into all soaps. I have really hard water here in LA so it will definitely be useful. Maybe I'll start putting it in all my soaps? Like how I've started to become with sodium lactate. I just put it in all my batches now. Is there any reason or situation where I wouldn't want to use TetraEDTA? or sodium lactate?

Your chemistry knowledge is so impressive and inspiring! The Disodium EDTA and Tetrasodium EDTA that I ordered will be arriving in the next couple days. I ordered the Di by mistake and ordered the Tetra the next day which was yesterday when I posted this thread question. Instead of returning it, maybe I'll hold on to the Disodium to do some experimenting with and give you some of the results you're asking for!

Also, I read the link you provided about EDTA 50% solution and I'm still not sure why I would want to use 50% instead of some other number like 39%. Is it just to have less water involved, or are there recipes out there that ask for tiny dry weight (like milligrams) of EDTA where a 50% solution would be easier to calculate?

Thank you so much for such a quick reply to my question plus all this great info! I can't say enough how grateful I am for this forum!
 
"...I thought it was like bread hydration where the EDTA was 39% of the water...."

You have a valid point, but your technical training encourages you to see the situation from a different perspective than most people. Non-chemistry folks almost always base the amount or percentage of an ingredient on the total weight of the solution or mixture.

I'd say that's generally true here on SMF, although it never hurts to ask and make sure, as you wisely did. In soaping, we often see the "ppo" convention used, which is basing ingredients on the weight of fats, not on the total weight. So even in non-chemistry groups, there can be exceptions to this rule.*

There's only water and EDTA in this solution, so you'd use the calculation I gave previously to calculate % EDTA on the basis of total solution weight --

% EDTA in the solution = (wt EDTA) / (wt EDTA + wt Water) X 100 = 39 / (39+61) X 100 = 39%​

The other way to calculate concentration is to base the amount or percentage of an ingredient on the main liquid (more correctly called the "solvent") in the solution or mixture. That would be the basis you were thinking of. It's not an everyday basis to use, but using a solvent basis is handy when making up a given solution or mixture -- there's less math to fiddle with.

For the EDTA solution, water is the solvent, so this is the calculation you'd use to calculate the % EDTA on a solvent basis --

% EDTA based on solvent weight = (wt EDTA) / (wt Water) X 100 = 39 / 61 X 100 = 64%
***

"...I'm still not sure why I would want to use 50% instead of some other number like 39%...."


I'd say the main reasons why people use a 50% solution rather than some other percentage are convenience and accuracy. This is the same reason one would use a solvent basis rather than a total solution basis -- the numbers are easier to calculate, so the math is easier and there's less chance for error.

Another reason is to increase the overall consistency of the soaping process. Many of us masterbatch NaOH as a 50% solution, so why not use a 50% concentration for EDTA and other solutions or mixtures? This common basis reduces the chance for mistakes in making these solutions and in using them.

Last -- probably least important for an EDTA solution -- is that a 50% solution requires a smaller container than a 39% solution.

***

* There's another exception to the rule that I see in soaping circles. That's when people talk about making brine (solseife?) soap. You will see people get into arguments about how much table salt you can dissolve in plain water to make a saturated solution. Some say the answer is about 26% salt and others say it's about 35% salt.

They're actually both right except neither side is presenting the numbers correctly. The correct way to state this info is this way -- At room temperature, a brine of table salt and water is saturated at about 26% salt by weight on a total solution basis or 35% by weight on a water (solvent) basis.

I think this confusion comes when non-chemist people look for information about making a saturated salt brine and don't understand that chemistry info can be presented in a number of different ways. They just see a number -- 26% or 35% -- and don't realize there's more to the story.
 
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@DeeAnna Thank you so very much for all that! Unfortunately I'm not likely to be making any soap till after the new year. When I relocate my EDTA I can send some to you if you want to test it yourself.
 
Disodium EDTA can be converted into Tetrasodium EDTA by reacting the Di with NaOH or other strong alkali. I strongly suspect it's as simple as measuring the correct amount of powdered Di and adding it to your lye solution. Di won't dissolve in plain water like Tetra will, but it should dissolve in lye solution and react with the NaOH to form Tetra.

I haven't done the calculations, so I don't have solid numbers at the moment about how much Di to use and how much NaOH it will consume as it converts to Tetra. Here's a link to what appears to be some reputable although not very detailed advice -- https://chemistscorner.com/cosmetic...-to-formulate-tetrasodium-edta-and-etidronate

I can do the math and get some numbers for you, but I'd need someone to test the practical use of Di for me, since I don't have any on hand. (Or someone to send me a small sample.) In particular, I'd want to know how well it dissolves in NaOH solution. Does it clump up on the top and is fiddly to get stirred into the lye? Does it need to be stirred a lot to dissolve once it is mixed into the lye liquid? Does it take a lot of time? Is there any great amount of heating from the reaction? Or is it dump in and swirl a bit and easy-peasy you're done?

edit:
Okay, I worked through the math. It looks like you want to use essentially the same weight of Di as you would Tetra. For example, if I normally use 5 g Tetra per 1000 g oil, I'd do the same for Di -- add 5 g Di per 1000 g oil.

The (very small) catch to using Di is every 5 grams of Di will consume about 1 g NaOH. We use so little EDTA in soap that you might not feel the need to adjust for this -- it's such a tiny error. If you're a geek like me, however, you Want To Know These Things so you can decide. ;)

So for those folks who have Disodium EDTA in their soaping pantries, now's the time to put your mad scientist hat on and try it. Please tell me if there are any tips or tricks to using Di. Remember -- it won't happily dissolve in plain water, but from what I can tell, it will dissolve in the strong alkali solutions we normally use to make soap. Would someone give it a try and report back?

I'll add this information to the EDTA article I have on my Soapy Stuff section. That way others can benefit from this insight.

Thank you, @Misschief!

I'm hoping maybe SaltedFig, GalaxyMLP, or someone else with a chemistry and math background will doublecheck my thinking. I think I've got the numbers straight, but it never hurts to get a second opinion.

EDTA's aren't my thing, so up until now I didn't know that much about it (other than it's use in medical circles, prior to hearing about it in soaping) and I certainly didn't know it's function in plant growth (which has piqued my interest - I'm going to have a bit of a closer look at that :)).

The thing that I didn't know, in the products you all use, is whether you are using the hydrate or anhydrous product, but I kind of concluded that it didn't actually matter (so long as the calculations were kept consistant), so I chose the hydrate version.

Anyway, I checked your numbers, and they look about right - I got 0.215, or 21.5%, as the multiplier, which is roughly equivalent to your 5 grams of H2Y2 to 1 gram of NaOH, to convert to Y4 and some spare water.

I did find a manufacturing document that looks similar to your idea of adding disodium EDTA to the lye solution. The manufacturer added the NaOH solution to the EDTA solution to convert the disodium EDTA to tetrasodium EDTA - it states that the product (Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid disodium salt dihydrate) is slowly soluble at room temperature up to 0.26M (stated as making a final solution of approx. 96mg in 1 ml) and the solubility increases as the pH increases.

In other bits of research, I found that there's graphs on the pH needed for each conversion step (these should be fairly easy to find - let me know if you need a link), but the bottom line is that the pH of the solution needs to reach over 10.3 for the tetrasodium EDTA to form ... under that and most of the conversion will not have taken place.

Summary:
Yes, 5 parts disodium EDTA to 1 part NaOH is a good way to remember it.
Add the sodium hydroxide slowly to the disodium EDTA solution
Make sure the final pH reaches at least 10.3 to convert to tetrasodium EDTA (higher is ok).
 
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"...the bottom line is that the pH of the solution needs to reach over 10.3 for the tetrasodium EDTA to form ... under that and most of the conversion will not have taken place...."

I agree. That's why I'm thinking our usual lye solutions (25% or more NaOH) should work fine for this, although one doesn't need remotely that much NaOH to get the pH sufficiently high. The pH of NaOH solution is just under 12 for a 0.1% NaOH solution and just over 13 for a 1% solution.

"...Add the sodium hydroxide slowly to the disodium EDTA solution..."

Chemists typically prepare EDTA solutions by adding disodium or "no sodium" EDTA to a weak NaOH solution, not just water. So why dissolve the disodium EDTA in water first? Couldn't we modify the chemists' method by adding disodium EDTA powder directly to the NaOH solution a person is going to use to make soap?

Or am I totally missing an important point, @SaltedFig? I hope you'll help me out by clarifying.
 
"...the bottom line is that the pH of the solution needs to reach over 10.3 for the tetrasodium EDTA to form ... under that and most of the conversion will not have taken place...."

I agree. That's why I'm thinking our usual lye solutions (25% or more NaOH) should work fine for this, although one doesn't need remotely that much NaOH to get the pH sufficiently high. The pH of NaOH solution is just under 12 for a 0.1% NaOH solution and just over 13 for a 1% solution.

"...Add the sodium hydroxide slowly to the disodium EDTA solution..."

Chemists typically prepare EDTA solutions by adding disodium or "no sodium" EDTA to a weak NaOH solution, not just water. So why dissolve the disodium EDTA in water first? Couldn't we modify the chemists' method by adding disodium EDTA powder directly to the NaOH solution a person is going to use to make soap?

Or am I totally missing an important point, @SaltedFig? I hope you'll help me out by clarifying.

The document I referred to was for the preparation of a standardized medical solution, so I expect that there is an exact method, with pages and pages of standards, checks and normal corporate/industrial production protocols. ;)

Bottom line - Yes, I think that this can be done the way around you are suggesting (in fact, I think it will be easier, as long as the EDTA is converted from disodium EDTA to tetrasodium EDTA within a reasonable amount of time)

From what I've read, the EDTA solution also stores quite well, so it could be also be designed as a lye/EDTA pre-mix (which would also be useful if the conversion takes a while) :)

(The only spanner in the works I can see with this approach is if the excess NaOH is an issue)
 
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"...it will be easier, as long as the EDTA is converted from disodium EDTA to tetrasodium EDTA within a reasonable amount of time..."

I get the impression that it dissolves fairly quickly with sufficiently high pH. That said, I haven't read anything about dissolving EDTA in the high concentrations of NaOH like we use. They're adding only a small bit of NaOH to raise the pH just high enough to dissolve the EDTA and no more.

I guess our guinea pigs will have to let us know whether we're full of bull manure or not. :D Wish I had some disodium to try it myself because I'm very curious about this.
 
Thank you, Carolyn! One data point from @cmzaha. Do you remember if it was at all difficult to dissolve the disodium EDTA?

I agree with sending white powder over the border, @Misschief. Thanks for the offer, but I think both of us will be happier if you don't. ;)

I've got to run (DH needs oral surgery). I'll get a call-to-action thread started later today or tomorrow.
 

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