I tinker with soap making for my family. with a focus on goat's milk soap. With my background is in engineering, I like to use the on-line calculators to tweak various combinations of oils and butter to reach a mix of bubbles, cleansing, condition, hardness, longevity and creaminess. I find myself using 4-6 different oils and 2-4 different butters, How many is too much? Anyone have any guidance or suggestions? I could not find much online about too many oils, just a lot about single oil soap.
How many oil types is too much?
- Thread starter jgs912
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Whatever you want to bring to the party is entirely up to you. The general consensus is that any oils under 3% of your recipe won’t make any discernible difference (with the exception of castor oil which many people use at 3%).
I tweaked a lot at the beginning too - and have now settled on a standard recipe consisting of seven oils.
I tweaked a lot at the beginning too - and have now settled on a standard recipe consisting of seven oils.
How many you want to measure out? Each time you make a batch?? I go with 3, 4 oils, 1 butter.
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
Welcome to SMF, @jgs912 !
Don't make yourself crazy about that property number mumbo jumbo. The “hardness”, “conditioning” etc. numbers (just as helpers like INS) were invented by someone who had a specific conception of how their soap should be. Without any idea what you would like a soap bar to be. It's good to know when a recipe fulfills the “ideal” ranges, but it doesn't tell you how to reach them (i. e. which types of oils are interchangeable) or if you miss some important caveats. It's a somewhat decent analytical toolkit, but of limited use for synthesis (i. e. recipe design).
Most importantly, it doesn't reflect that there are different classes of oils, that have different degrees of flexibility to choose.
What the “bubbly” and “cleansing” numbers really want to tell you (in a very cumbersome and unintuitive way) is that there is some truth in the habit to use 5% castor oil and about 20% lauric oil (most often coconut or palm kernel oil).
This is kind of a constant through a solid majority of soap recipes. I. e. you can't make much wrong with adhering to it. And then you don't have to care about lauric oils (read: count in their number into the “free choice of ingredients”)
In my experience, there are merely two other parameters to best keep an eye on: the “longevity” number that shouldn't fall below about 26, and the poly-unsaturated fatty acids (sum of linoleic and linolenic acid in the fatty acid profile) that should be well below 15% to minimise DOS/rancidity risk.
Following these simple rules makes all other numbers (including iodine and INS) more or less fall in place magically! There is some redundancy hidden in the numbers (e. g. hardness:conditioning = sat:unsat number, i. e. hardness+conditioning=100).
Two parameters: that means that you should be fine with two extra oils – or even a single one if you choose a good one. Every extra oil makes the system “more or less” overdetermined, i. e. unnecessary from the point of view of the property numbers/FA profile. There might be good reasons why you would want to use more than that. But this might also point you why you don't need to. All “butters” (tropical hard fats) for example, are (slightly simplified) a mix of 45–60% hard FAs (mostly stearic) and the rest oleic acid. Hence they are fully interchangeable, with some minor adjustment of an oleic oil (olive, HO sunflower, almond…). Judging just from the FA profile, the use of more than one butter is mere label appeal.
How many oils do I have to use? Well, the Basic Trinity recipe class (hugely popular among beginners and professionals likewise) bears the answer in its name already. With castor included, we are at four oils. Minus the “imperative” categories (castor, lauric oil), we have two. In the original Basic Trinity, that's olive and palm/lard/tallow. Representatives of the oleic oil and hard fat categories, respectively. You can relatively freely decide which you choose from these, but it is rather the exception that you need to choose more than one from either. (As an example for such an exception: you want to include rice bran oil (relatively high in linoleic acid), but don't want to collide with the PUFA limit, so you split the soft oil budget into RBO and olive – see Basic Trinity: Tweak 2!)
Things only become more complicated if you want to achieve certain non-soapy qualities (like cost/availability, ideological concerns about animal fats and/or palm oil and/or GMO, local sourcing, avoiding some allergenic oil, or just using up the remainders of some stuff you want to get rid of).
Don't make yourself crazy about that property number mumbo jumbo. The “hardness”, “conditioning” etc. numbers (just as helpers like INS) were invented by someone who had a specific conception of how their soap should be. Without any idea what you would like a soap bar to be. It's good to know when a recipe fulfills the “ideal” ranges, but it doesn't tell you how to reach them (i. e. which types of oils are interchangeable) or if you miss some important caveats. It's a somewhat decent analytical toolkit, but of limited use for synthesis (i. e. recipe design).
Most importantly, it doesn't reflect that there are different classes of oils, that have different degrees of flexibility to choose.
What the “bubbly” and “cleansing” numbers really want to tell you (in a very cumbersome and unintuitive way) is that there is some truth in the habit to use 5% castor oil and about 20% lauric oil (most often coconut or palm kernel oil).
This is kind of a constant through a solid majority of soap recipes. I. e. you can't make much wrong with adhering to it. And then you don't have to care about lauric oils (read: count in their number into the “free choice of ingredients”)
In my experience, there are merely two other parameters to best keep an eye on: the “longevity” number that shouldn't fall below about 26, and the poly-unsaturated fatty acids (sum of linoleic and linolenic acid in the fatty acid profile) that should be well below 15% to minimise DOS/rancidity risk.
Following these simple rules makes all other numbers (including iodine and INS) more or less fall in place magically! There is some redundancy hidden in the numbers (e. g. hardness:conditioning = sat:unsat number, i. e. hardness+conditioning=100).
Two parameters: that means that you should be fine with two extra oils – or even a single one if you choose a good one. Every extra oil makes the system “more or less” overdetermined, i. e. unnecessary from the point of view of the property numbers/FA profile. There might be good reasons why you would want to use more than that. But this might also point you why you don't need to. All “butters” (tropical hard fats) for example, are (slightly simplified) a mix of 45–60% hard FAs (mostly stearic) and the rest oleic acid. Hence they are fully interchangeable, with some minor adjustment of an oleic oil (olive, HO sunflower, almond…). Judging just from the FA profile, the use of more than one butter is mere label appeal.
How many oils do I have to use? Well, the Basic Trinity recipe class (hugely popular among beginners and professionals likewise) bears the answer in its name already. With castor included, we are at four oils. Minus the “imperative” categories (castor, lauric oil), we have two. In the original Basic Trinity, that's olive and palm/lard/tallow. Representatives of the oleic oil and hard fat categories, respectively. You can relatively freely decide which you choose from these, but it is rather the exception that you need to choose more than one from either. (As an example for such an exception: you want to include rice bran oil (relatively high in linoleic acid), but don't want to collide with the PUFA limit, so you split the soft oil budget into RBO and olive – see Basic Trinity: Tweak 2!)
Things only become more complicated if you want to achieve certain non-soapy qualities (like cost/availability, ideological concerns about animal fats and/or palm oil and/or GMO, local sourcing, avoiding some allergenic oil, or just using up the remainders of some stuff you want to get rid of).
I think it's really a personal choice. You do you. I've settled on 5 oils and 1 butter. Sometimes I wish it was fewer -- mostly because of the dirty dishes factor. Also, welcome aboard!
Something I want to add. I use four oils and two butters...that's max for me. If it wasn't for being able to master batch, I'd probably go back to just four oils because the more ingredients, the more work involved in getting out all the ingredients, weighing and measuring, putting everything back...sigh. Until I started MBing I mitigated it by investing in a soap cart (aka rolling kitchen island) that holds everything in easy reach.
The smallest amount of oil I use is Castor Oil at 5%, everything else is a minimum of 10% since there is no benefit to using something at a lesser amount.
But since you aren't selling, personal preference really comes into play as you don't have to consider cost or time.
The smallest amount of oil I use is Castor Oil at 5%, everything else is a minimum of 10% since there is no benefit to using something at a lesser amount.
But since you aren't selling, personal preference really comes into play as you don't have to consider cost or time.
SJC
Member
I am new to the forum, I use 7 oils and 3 butters! I love to formulate recipes and this mix has made the final cut lol, I have tried to cut the number down several times and I always go back to my fav 10. I probably could use 1 butter in place of the 3, I guess I just like the idea they are all there it is a fabulous bar of soap. I agree with above you do you! Make your soap the best you can. Happy formulating.
I found this helpful in my earlier days...What Fatty Acid Profiles in Soapmaking Are the Most Popular?
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
Please take a moment to go to the Introduction Forum and tell us a little about yourself. Repeat what you said in your post above and anything else you care to share. This will make it easier for us to help you with any issues or questions you may have.
Without putting to fine a point on it, that is a great starter formula for where you are now in your soaping journey. Once you are familiar with the 3 legs of what makes a "professional" bar of soap that works for most skin types, the possibilities are endless.
Thanks for the help, great insight.
Currently reading the "Soapmaker's Companion". I breezed over the items you noted. Going back thru the details. Also doing a lot of online learning.
Do you have any other books or educational web sites you can suggest? Very interested in the chemistry behind this process.
ResolvableOwl
Notorious Lyear
Unfortunately not really. There are some gems at @DeeAnna's website Soapy Stuff and scattered around SMF and some blogs, but the point is really that you won't learn much from reading without doing it yourself, and training your feeling for oil blends, FA profiles, additives, and their behaviour over time. A nice photograph, appealing videos, or extensive descriptions are fine, but cannot replace getting your hands dirty.
Also, there is a sorry imbalance against negative results, i. e. people tend to post their successes, but not so much their failures – which in revenge lets more people make the same errors over and over again.
There is the book “Scientific Soapmaking” from Kevin M. Dunn, which is an amazing resource for someone who wants to grasp the fundamental chemical concepts of soap, or doesn't want to feel dumb at the drawng board nor make mistakes in the apron/lab coat. But it's rather basic in the treatment of soap recipes, and won't help you much with tweaking oil blends.
John Harris
Well-Known Member
Now now, my dear Gecko! We mustn't forget St. Joseph's Oil, which I use at 1.3% No amount of lye will strip it of its benefit!
https://www.saint-joseph.org/en/spirituality/saint-joseph/saint-joseph-oil/
Zany_in_CO
Saponifier
Susan Miller Cavitch is one of the early pioneers of home-based soap making. That's one of the best references you can have on your shelf for troubleshooting batches and for basic info about oils and such. However, it was first published in 1959 and a lot has changed since then. She is also the author of "The Natural Soap Book".
For example, her recipes have 10% SF (Super fat aka "Lye Disount") -- too high in general -- 5% or less is better -- and grapefruit seed extract in all her recipes. GSE has been proven to not have the antioxidant effectiveness for which it was intended. No one uses it any more. It is hard to find and expensive. So be sure to recalculate the lye for every formula of hers that you try and, if you are so inclined, use ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) antioxidant to extend the shelf life of oils (optional).
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Great article! Great! TY
️Thanks for this. It will help a lot of new soapers like us.
