Help! I need soap for hard water

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kattobrn

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Hello friends, I recently moved and no longer have a water softener. My soaps were wonderful at my old house with the water softener. But now they don't lather well, nor do last very long as I have to use so much to get a little bit of lather on the puff. Any suggestions? My usual recipe is CO 10%; OO 30%; Cisco 20%; cocoa butter 20%; Shea butter 15%; sweet almond oil 5%. I add 1 tsp sugar ppo to the water, lemon juice (replaces some of the water) and powdered milk. Any help is greatly appreciated.
 
I have very soft water, so I do not know how to deal with hard water from personal experience, but I routinely use 1 tablespoon of sugar PPO. I tried using a high butter content (20-25%) in a soap, and I could not get bubbles even with my soft water. I stopped using even the 5-10% butters now as I do not find that they help the soap condition any better than lard, CO, OO.
 
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I have very hard water myself! If you can up the coconut oil a bit and add in castor oil, that should help. Also, with pretty much all of my soaps I add some form of sugar, and I create sodium citrate in the lyewater by adding citric acid (5g per 1lb/500g oils) and a bit more lye to react with it (3g lye for every 5g citric acid). If you can get sodium citrate, you can go ahead and just add that to the lye water instead. I have found the combination of sugar and sodium citrate to be very helpful with getting bubbles in hard water, more than just sugar alone.

ETA: I see you said you already add sugar and lemon juice... Try upping the sugar to 1 Tbsp. How much lemon juice do you add?
 
Another thing I thought of... Are you factoring the acids from the lemon juice into your superfat? Did you start adding the lemon juice when you switched to your new house, or did you always add it?

If you just started adding it and didn't adjust the lye to compensate, then you're likely getting a higher superfat percentage than you expect, and that can suppress bubbles too.
 
Thanks for sharing that video, lsg. Salt and citric acid... suddenly I want a margarita

I've used citric acid in my lye water per the shampoo bar thread to make sodium citrate and it has made a difference. Maybe I'll try a bit of salt sometime too.
 
I have hard water,and it sucks!Just an example,but using the J.R.Liggits old fashioned shampoo bar,which is JUST coconut oil,castor oil and olive oil....I get tremendous bubbles and lather(I do need to use ac vinegar 1tsp/cup water to rinse my hair sometimes).This shampoo bar is what actually sparked my interest in soap making.I devised my own recipe which is super simple so I'm sure I'm not the only one to come up with these exact measurement.I use 15%castor,25%coconut oil and 60% olive oil pomace or pure.This is all I use for body and hair.30%water and 5%lye discount.I mixed oils and lye water at 105*F,traces very quick and I use a whisk even,not immersion blender. Give it a try.Oh,I didn't use any essential oils.My whole theme here was"minimalist,no animal,no palm and absolutely wasting anything that really made no difference on my skin after the fact any way.I tried different butters and lard/tallow,and better oils.And honestly when I'm all dried off and dressed,my skin is not worse or better for any butter or oil I use,so why waste it?And I have extremely sensitive skin,which dries easily and is prone to irritation.I have no problem with this formula.I can see from a selling stand point where key butters and other ingredients may sell better,though.It goes down the drain in a matter of seconds either way.I reserve my butter and more precious oils for moisturizing,like one would use lotion,if its going to do my skin good,its going to be there for more than 1 minute.I don't do the color and sparkle and such.though it's pretty,and it takes talent,it just seems so wasteful to me.I bought soap that was so pretty,I felt like I was destroying someone's Mona Lisa.I want to bathe not defacing someone's art work with my but. :) Needless to say,I'm not they type to decorate with cute little guest soaps either(but I do like them).Im just that waste not want not type,less is more,yadda,yadda....you know,that annoying pain in the but naturalist everyone wished would just hush ;) give it a try,you may like it.
 
Let me clarify that last post....."when I use she's butter(which I just love to death!),or other butters and higher priced oils(reeeeealy like jojoba),to actually hold a dry bar in my hand,there is a different kind of silky waxy type feel that is just so nice.But to use it in the shower and rinse it away to me I feel no skin benefit.But the bar it's self does have a different feel to it.I like using those finer butters and such in lotion bars. :)
 
Bubli - I'm really interested in reading what you have to say, but I find your writing style impossible to read, since all of the words and punctuation are crammed so close together!

Please could you format your posts in future so there are gaps between words, and also gaps between paragraphs?

Thanks :)
Anna x
 
I don't understand why it would appear this way to readers.That's strange because I use spaces between words.I'll definitely look into it.Thanks.
 
I have very hard water myself! If you can up the coconut oil a bit and add in castor oil, that should help. Also, with pretty much all of my soaps I add some form of sugar, and I create sodium citrate in the lyewater by adding citric acid (5g per 1lb/500g oils) and a bit more lye to react with it (3g lye for every 5g citric acid). If you can get sodium citrate, you can go ahead and just add that to the lye water instead. I have found the combination of sugar and sodium citrate to be very helpful with getting bubbles in hard water, more than just sugar alone.

ETA: I see you said you already add sugar and lemon juice... Try upping the sugar to 1 Tbsp. How much lemon juice do you add?

I'm curious, what is sodium citrate? Is it citric acid? And does adding either of them help with that tacky feeling in hair after using shampoo bars in hard water?
 
Irishlass - Can you tell me how much EDTA you use and how you incorporate it? I tried using it about a year ago and gave up since I could not dissolve it.

Thanks!
 
Irishlass - Can you tell me how much EDTA you use and how you incorporate it? I tried using it about a year ago and gave up since I could not dissolve it.

Thanks!


Sorry so late in responding! Just got back from a very lovely, much needed vacation.

For my soaps, I like to work from a master-batch 39% solution of EDTA that I make myself out of powdered Tetrasodium EDTA and warmed distilled water, which gets stored away in a plastic bottle with a flip-top cover to use as needed. I normally make 12 oz of the solution up at a time, which is plenty enough to last me through several 2.7 pound batches of soap (the size batches I normally make).

Why a 39% solution, you might ask? :confused: Well, from all that I've read, a 39% solution is a good % for the Tetrasodium EDTA to be able to dissolve properly without precipitating out of solution during storage.....so that's the % solution that I make, and for what it's worth, it stays nicely dissolved for me and is very convenient to use.

To figure out the proper amounts of warmed distilled water and EDTA that I'll need in order to make enough 39% solution to fit inside my 12 oz. bottle, I like to use Roxanne's DWCP Water Calculator : http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/watercalc.php . I simply type '39' in the 'Desired Solution Strength' box, then I play around with the water and EDTA amounts until their combined weights equal out to as close as 12 oz as possible without going over (I use the 'Weight of Lye' box for the EDTA amount).

Once I've weighed out the proper amounts of each, I mix them together in my trusty lab beaker with pour spout (a measuring cup will work just as well), stirring until fully dissolved, then I pour the solution into my 12 oz. bottle, cover tightly, and store at room temp until needed. You can make a larger or smaller amount than 12 ounces by the way. I make 12 oz. simply for convenience sake because I happen to have lots of 12 oz bottles on hand.

No matter how much or how little of the solution you make, please make a note that the total weight of the finished 39% solution in grams divided by the gram weight of the powdered EDTA with which you used to make the solution should always equal out to 2.56g. You don't need to overly concern yourself too much about that fact at this point in the discussion, but write it down in your notes, because it will come into play shortly.

The usage rate of EDTA that I like to use in my soap is .5% per my entire batch weight (as opposed to just the ppo weight), but since I'm working from a 39% solution instead of adding straight-up/full-strength EDTA powder to my batch, I need to do a little bit of extra math to make sure I add enough of the solution to my batch that will equal out to a .5% amount of powdered EDTA. Here is how I calculate things out when working from a 39% solution (it's a simple 2-part equation):

1) First, I total up the weights of all my batch ingredients in grams, including the gram weights of the FO, colorants, and any other additives I might add.

2) I then take that sum total batch weight in grams and multiply it by .5%. The resulting sum will be the amount of powdered EDTA in grams that is required for my batch.....oh, but wait.... my EDTA is in a 39% solution, so I'll need to do one more calculation to account for that. Do you remember that amount of 2.56g that I metioned a few paragraphs above? Well, now's the time to put it to good use. Take the resulting sum of powdered EDTA that you just calculated out when you multiplied the total batch weight in grams by .5%, and then multiply it by 2.56. The resulting sum from that is how much of the 39% solution in grams that you'll need to weigh out for your batch.

I like to add my EDTA solution to my batch right after I add in the lye solution. It mixes in quite nicely for me without any problems.

I hope that helps! It all may sound confusing at first, but just stick to the 2-part equation (even if you don't fully understand it), and it will all come out right in the end since the math doesn't lie. Please let me know if you need me to clarify anything!

IrishLass :)
 
"...I'm curious, what is sodium citrate? Is it citric acid?..."

Um, no, it's not. If it was, the folks would be saying citric acid. :)

Sodium citrate is what you get when you react citric acid with sodium hydroxide.

You can either add sodium citrate to your soap recipe with no other adjustment...

OR

...you can add citric acid AND enough extra NaOH to react properly with the citric acid. You need to add 0.6 g of NaOH for every 1 gram of citric acid. Said another way, you need 6 g NaOH for every 10 g citric acid. This lye is added to the amount of NaOH needed to make the soap itself.

Either way you get sodium citrate in the soap to help with hard water issues.
 
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