Hard oils vs soft oils and speed of saponification

[szaza]

I'm posting this to not further hijack the post I first mentioned and because I think this might be useful information for somebody at some point. I'm not sure if this is 'common soaping knowledge' that I just wasn't aware of, but all the recommendations I read about gel and volcano talk about sugar, water and soaping temps, but not about hard oils vs soft oils, so I'm assuming there are more people who don't know about the connection between type of oil and gel/cook/volcano.

A thread about countertop HP prompted me to try this method, which pretty much comes down to adding some sugar and soaping at very high temperatures to let the soap cook/volcano (controlled) without extra heat added to it. The big advantage is that it cooks very quickly and can cut down working time a lot.
In case you're interested, here's the thread:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/hp-soapers-a-question-for-you.71054/

Trying this on a batch of soap that I was going to HP anyway, did not give the spectacular volcano I had expected. In fact, nothing happened and I had to put the soap in the oven after a while. I had held a big part of my water back to add after the cook to make the batter more fluid and I thought that might have inhibited the soap from gelling/cooking/volcanoing (for more info on the influence of water on soap heating and gelling, see this great post by auntie clara: https://auntieclaras.com/2015/06/overheating-soap/)

So the next morning I got myself some wheat germ oil that I was going to throw out and decided to soap that with a 0% superfat, full water (33% lye solution) and a bit more sugar than with the last try. I also made sure my oils and lye were super hot when mixing (I don't have a thermometer, so my standard for this was practically unable to touch the bowl without oven mitts) This is the recipe:
213g wheat germ oil
27,8g lye
56,9g distilled water
8,8g sugar

Unfortunately, even though I added more water and sugar than last time and I'm assuming enough heat, this recipe did not want to gel at all. First I stick blended to trace, waited, stick blended, waited... Then I decided to put my soaping bowl in a hot water bath.. stick blending, waiting, stick blending, waiting.. nothing. In the end I popped it in the oven, first low heat, slowly more and more heat applied and I never really got beyond apple sauce... After about 1,5 hours I was fed up and dumped all of it in molds. There was still some oil floating to the top if I diluted some soap in hot water, so saponification was not complete. Strangely enough this went worse than the first time, even though I had adapted the recipe to gel easier.

I realized that mulline, one of the posters on the countertop hp thread who had great results and was kind enough to share her recipe had a lot of hard oils in her recipe. Would that do the trick? Hard oils are easier to get to trace, so maybe also easier to gel? I tried to look up information about this on the internet, but didn't find any (maybe I didn't look in the right place? The internet is a big place..)

Anyway, I decided to get some coconut oil and do the exact same recipe with the exact same amounts of lye, water and sugar, so the lye:water ratio and the water as % of oils would be the same in both recipes. That way I was certain the amount of water would not influence the gelling/cooking speed of the soap. It made for a 28,5% superfat in the coconut oil soap, but hey, it's going to have to be rebatched anyway..
213g coconut oil
27,8g lye
56,9g distilled water
8,9g sugar (woopsie)
Nothing changed in the process, except it was a different oil. But the speed of saponification was remarkable! Within 30min I had mixed my lye with my oils and everything had cooked without any added heat.

Of course the small batch size might have given some variation on its own and my temperatures weren't very accurate, but the differrence between the two oils is so big that I think it's safe to assume that hard oils saponify faster and gel/cook more easily than soft oils.

A theory why the coconut oil soap gelled so much easier:
Maybe the increased speed of trace of the coconut oil released heat more quickly, which kickstarted the gelling process? Oh... I so want to buy a thermometer now to check gelling temps and repeat the experiment!

 

[LiLiSoapz]

This sounds interesting. I hav e watched videos on that process and have read some threads. I did notice that some people had good luck with the method, while others completely bombed. I never made the correlation (I'm brand spanking new to soaping), but you may be onto something.

 

[DeeAnna]

Wheat germ oil is a high linoleic-linolenic oil. This type of fat starts to saponify more slowly due to its higher molecular weight (longer molecules) and a high % of double carbon bonds. Coconut oil is a high myristic-lauric oil. This type of fat starts saponifying faster due to its lower molecular weight (shorter molecules) and lower amount of double bonds.

Water content also modifies the rate of saponification -- more water generally means slower saponification and that is a downside when you saponify a high oleic, linoleic, or linolenic fat. Since this high temp HP method is high in water, this will further slow down the saponification of wheat germ oil, especially if you are not able to carefully monitor the temperature to keep it high enough to force the chemical reaction.

Gel is not a hard-and-fast indicator of the rate of saponification. It can be, but you have to keep the context in mind. Gel happens when solid soap changes into liquidy soap. It's a physical phase change, pretty much like ice melting to water. It's not a chemical change directly related to the chemistry of saponification.

Whether or not a soap goes into gel is related to the water content of the soap as well as the temperature of the soap. High water soap will go into the gel phase at lower temperatures than soap with a lower water content.

HP soap usually has a lot of water (especially the high temp variation you're playing around with), so, yes, it is true that HP soap is more likely to go into gel due to its higher water content, especially if the ingredients are preheated. And, yes, it is true that coconut oil soap batter will go into gel a little easier and quicker than a wheatgerm soap batter, all other things being equal. If a soap doesn't gel due to having less water content and/or not getting quite warm enough, it's still going to saponify just fine.

Trace is also not a hard-and-fast indicator of the rate of saponification. Trace is simply a visual indicator that enough actual soap has formed to chemically emulsify the soap batter, so you don't have to mechanically mix the batter anymore. It's fairly easy to get most soap batter to a chemically stable emulsion in about 5-10 seconds of stick blending, and saponification has barely gotten started at that point.

"...did not give the spectacular volcano I had expected. In fact, nothing happened and I had to put the soap in the oven after a while. I had held a big part of my water back to add after the cook to make the batter more fluid and I thought that might have inhibited the soap from gelling/cooking/volcanoing..."

What others have found when playing around with the high-temperature HP method is that the soap batter has to start hot and be kept hot until the saponification reaction takes over and generates its own heat. And then the soap batter has to stay hot throughout the saponification time.

You didn't say what the temp of the water was that you added, so I gather it was room temp water? You also imply you added it after saponification was largely over, so I can't see how this added water had any effect on the saponification, unless you added it earlier than you thought and saponification was still going on? If so, room temp ingredients will cool the soap batter too much so a high-temp HP process won't happen.

 

[cmzaha]

I still do not understand why people want to play with creating a volcano, they can be so dangerous. I mentioned in another thread I accidentally overheated a cream soap and it created a volcano which I was not able to stir down fast enough. My cabinets did not like it at all and it was a mess to clean up. So I now what temps very closely so my hp does not volcano. A high heat soap can also burn skin badly. I forgot to mention that just like a volcano this on spewed up some of the hot soap so if I had been standing over it it could have hit my face. No thank

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree with you, Carolyn. I also know the hours of cooking for "traditional" HP soap is overkill. The cook time can be cut down substantially and still make safe, high quality soap. I don't make that much HP, but I've always been done in under an hour, easy, when I have made HP soap. IMO, the high-temp HP method is not that much of a time saver over that, and high temp HP is definitely more hazardous. Maybe it's the adrenaline rush?

 

[LiLiSoapz]

Perhaps those are the reasons that the technique or process wasn't too popular or should I say outwardly used (Prior to the resurgence a few years ago that is). People seemed to have known about the technique, but probably came to the realization as the two of you. It doesn't save enough time to be worth the risks.

That being said, there is a major difference between being completely blind sighted by a volcano and being prepared. Perhaps those who like this technique are prepared for what may come and have their area and everything set up for best case and worst case scenarios.

 

[szaza]

Thank you for taking the time to answer so elaborately @DeeAnna ! I love reading your posts, they're always super informative and I feel like I'm learning new things every time you post something.
I did take trace and gel as hard-and-fast indicators of saponification and I'm really glad you pointed that out that they're not.. another misconseption out of the window on my part!

Can I recap to see if I understood correctly what you were saying and ask some more questions?
- Soft oils and more water both make for slower saponification. Soft oils are slower because of longer chains and double bonds. - Could you specify how the longer chains and double bonds lower the rate of saponification exactly? I just became really curious about that when I was reading..
- More water makes saponification slower - is that because the lye is more dispersed and therefore less likely to bump into an oil molecule to saponify?
- More water also makes soap gel at lower temperatures. Is it simply easier to liquify if there is already more liquid in there? Or is there another reason?
- Also, I've read that soap that has gone through gel is fully saponified (but not cured). Does that still hold true if gel is no hard-and-fast indicator of saponification and only a phase change of the soap?
- If it's not necessarily saponification that makes trace thicken, then what is? I just assumed that there was more and more (solid) soap to emulsify less and less liquids (oils and water), so the batter became thicker, but I now realize that that assumption is probably false.
- Am I correct in thinking that the wheat germ oil probably didn't gel because saponification took too long and the soap had cooled too much before it started generating heat from the saponification reaction to get it to a gelling temperature?
Those turned out to be a lot more questions than I thought I had when I started writing them down.. Obviously it would be awesome if you could answer all of them, but if you could direct me to a link or another source I would also appreciate it very much.

You didn't say what the temp of the water was that you added, so I gather it was room temp water? You also imply you added it after saponification was largely over, so I can't see how this added water had any effect on the saponification, unless you added it earlier than you thought and saponification was still going on? If so, room temp ingredients will cool the soap batter too much so a high-temp HP process won't happen.

I only held the liquid (aloe gel) back in the first batch, which was a normal soap recipe, and added it after the soap was fully gelled in the oven (to make the batter more liquid for swirls). I heated the liquid up a little until it was closer to the temperature of the soap. I theorized that holding back liquid until after saponification could have inhibited gel, because I was basically just soaping with higher lye:water concentration and therefore tried the test batches (WGO and CO) with all the water mixed with the lye.

I really just did this because I was bored and had a question, so I decided to have a little sunday afternoon experiment and enjoyed seeing the difference between the two soaps (WGO and CO). When I started the CO batch I didn't think the difference between the two soaps would be so big, especially because the high superfat could have inhibited saponification in the CO soap and slowed it down. I was very much surprised by the results, the difference between the two soaps was like day and night, even though there was only one variable that had changed (I think, I have to admit I wasn't too precise with the temps which I now regret. Soaping thermometer just made its way to the top of my soapy wishlist!).

 

[szaza]

I still do not understand why people want to play with creating a volcano, they can be so dangerous. I mentioned in another thread I accidentally overheated a cream soap and it created a volcano which I was not able to stir down fast enough. My cabinets did not like it at all and it was a mess to clean up. So I now what temps very closely so my hp does not volcano. A high heat soap can also burn skin badly. I forgot to mention that just like a volcano this on spewed up some of the hot soap so if I had been standing over it it could have hit my face. No thank

Honestly, I think this -for me at least- was a case of curiousity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back. A new way of doing things and some people who had good results in combination with me planning to do a HP batch anyway and thinking, 'meh, might as well add some sugar and soap on higher temps and see what happens'.
I did take extra care by keeping my soaping pot in the sink whenever I could (my stickblender just doesn't reach the sink, so I had to take it out for stick blending), soaping with small batches in (slightly) larger pots so they had more space to expand. I was wearing not only gloves and goggles, but also boots and my boyfriends old lab coat and basically just tried to cover every inch of my body as best I could.
After trying 3 batches in the end, I'm probably not coming back to countertop HP. The failed batches took much longer and the one batch that I succeeded to cook without added heat (and without volcano, yay!) was finished in 30min, which is faster, but not thát much faster than my normal HP that always works (also recipes with more soft oils). I could imagine it would be worth it for someone, but not for me at the moment.
It was exciting to try... was it worth the risk of trying? I'm not sure. There are people who seem to swear by this method, and if you never try you never know. I've tried and now I know I prefer sticking to my old method, but I learned a bunch while trying. Of course I might have thought differently if something bad had happened..

 

[DeeAnna]

Can I recap to see if I understood correctly what you were saying and ask some more questions?...

- ...Could you specify how the longer chains and double bonds lower the rate of saponification exactly?...

No, I can't exactly do that, because I haven't studied the reaction kinetics of saponification all that closely. What I can tell you is, IMO, shape and size probably do matter.

A fat molecule is like an animal with 3 legs. The backbone is the glycerin molecule and each of the 3 legs is a fatty acid. The alkali (the sodium or potassium ions from your lye) has two jobs to do in order to create soap.

The first job is to split each of the 3 fatty acids away from the glycerin backbone. If the fatty acid "legs" are big (high molecular weight) and bulky due to curves and twists (polyunsaturated or monounsaturated), then it's going to be harder for the alkali to do its job of splitting each fat molecule apart. In other words, big bulky fats like wheat germ oil are going to be tough critters to split apart. Smaller, trim fats like coconut are going to be much easier to dismember.

The second task of the alkali is to react with the free fatty acids to make soap molecules. That's the easy part, regardless of the size and shape of the fatty acid. This step goes much faster than the first, as anyone who uses stearic acid to make shave soap can tell you.

- More water makes saponification slower - is that because the lye is more dispersed and therefore less likely to bump into an oil molecule to saponify?

That's how I think of it, yes. Remember each alkali ion has to work its way into the fat molecule to split it apart and then the alkali has to react with the freed fatty acids to make soap.

Electrical attraction is also at work. Water and alkali are both water-soluble and polar (translation -- they mix well with each other, and they both have strong electrical charges). The electrical attractions between the alkali and the water also interfere with saponification. Fats are non-ionic, hydrophobic molecules (translation -- they don't have strong electrical charges, and then don't mix with water), so they don't mix and react quite as easily with water and alkali.

- More water also makes soap gel at lower temperatures. Is it simply easier to liquify if there is already more liquid in there? Or is there another reason?

Again, I'm not an expert, but what I think is happening is that soap naturally wants to form an organized structure. Heat and water interfere with that "desire" to be organized. To some extent, soap still is organized when it's in gel -- it's a liquid crystal, rather than a solid crystal state, which is why soap in the gel phase forms a thick paste rather than a thin liquid.

A digression -- The texture of soap in gel varies with the water content and the temperature, but it does exactly opposite of what you'd expect. It turns out as water content goes higher, the gel becomes extra firm and sticky enough that you can't stir it. This is called "middle soap." As the water content goes lower in the soap, the gel will become more stirrable and "vaseline-y". This type of gel is called "neat soap." This is not what common sense would say should happen.

This shift from middle to neat soap is what I think some HP and liquid soap makers are using as an indicator that their soap is done saponifying. The shift in texture really means they've cooked it long enough to go from the sticky stage into the vaseline stage -- the soap might easily have been fully saponified hours before. Unfortunately, as long as the soap is still in that stiff, sticky "middle soap" stage, they think it's not done so they keep cooking for hours 'n hours.

- Also, I've read that soap that has gone through gel is fully saponified (but not cured). Does that still hold true if gel is no hard-and-fast indicator of saponification and only a phase change of the soap?

Soap batter in the gel phase may be saponifying very nicely but gel doesn't mean the soap is done saponifying. When making soap without added heat, you only know that the soap is saponifying. Not whether it is fully done saponifying. When it cools off naturally, that's a more likely sign that saponification is mostly or all finished. You have to do a zap test or excess alkalinity test to know that for sure.

When making soap with added heat and the soap is in gel, you only know that the soap has sufficient water and warmth to become a gel. It may be actively saponifying when in gel, or it may be long done with the saponification and it's just the artificial heat that's keeping it in the gel state.

Whether a soap gels or does not gel is not proof the soap is fully saponified. You can make soap that never gels but is fully saponified. Or vice versa, if your recipe has excess lye. The proof that saponification is complete and there is not excess alkali is the zap or excess alkalinity test.

- If it's not necessarily saponification that makes trace thicken, then what is? I just assumed that there was more and more (solid) soap to emulsify less and less liquids (oils and water), so the batter became thicker, but I now realize that that assumption is probably false.

When you start making soap, some soap has to be formed to function as an emulsifier so, yes, you need some soap in the batter before you can get the soap to emulsify. You can get that soap from the saponification reaction, but some soapers add a little bit of finished soap to their fresh batter. This "cheat" was especially helpful in the days before stick blenders.

It doesn't take a large amount of any emulsifier to emulsify fat and oil. When making a hand lotion, for example, the emulsifier might be only a few percent of the total batch. That's all that's needed for the emulsifier to function properly. Same thing holds true when soap is used to emulsify the fat and water phases in soap batter. It only takes a modest amount of soap to emulsify the batter so it will remain fully mixed without you having to stir it.

Another aspect of emulsification is the mixing. If you don't mechanically mix the soap batter sufficiently well enough, the emulsion will never form even if there is enough soap present. A thin layer of soap will form at the interface between the fat layer and the lye layer and that's that. You can get sufficient mixing and emulsification in a fairly short time by using a stick blender or you can get sufficient emulsification after a longer time if you have to hand stir.

- Am I correct in thinking that the wheat germ oil probably didn't gel because saponification took too long and the soap had cooled too much before it started generating heat from the saponification reaction to get it to a gelling temperature?

That's probably true. For this high temp HP method to work, you can't let it cool down at all. My understanding of this method is you have to supply enough artificial heat and intense mixing at first to jump start the saponification reaction. Once saponification becomes self-sustaining reaction, you are counting on the heat it creates to further increase the temperature of the batter -- the volcanoes happen when the water in the soap turns into steam and the steam and other gases bubble up through the batter -- and that drives saponification to completion even faster.

IMO, this method will be most effective with recipes that saponify easily. If you have a recipe that normally generates a lot of heat without a lot of encouragement, that's a good bet for this method. I'd say any recipe high in coconut oil is a good choice.

If you want to use a recipe that doesn't generate a lot of heat on its own quite quickly (in other words, your wheatgerm recipe), then you will need to cook and stir sufficiently long enough until it finally decides to warm up on its own. At which point, your stick blender is beginning to break down, your temper is melting along with the heat, and you have to ask yourself if a "normal" HP method would have been just as good.

 

[cmzaha]

I agree with you, Carolyn. I also know the hours of cooking for "traditional" HP soap is overkill. The cook time can be cut down substantially and still make safe, high quality soap. I don't make that much HP, but I've always been done in under an hour, easy, when I have made HP soap. IMO, the high-temp HP method is not that much of a time saver over that, and high temp HP is definitely more hazardous. Maybe it's the adrenaline rush?

It also takes me under an hour to hp a batch. I have a few fo's that have to be done by hp.

 

[penelopejane]

Can’t you achieve the same result as the OPs method by CPing at a higher temp say 45*C (113*F) (achieved by warming your oils) and insulating it to keep the heat in?

 

[msunnerstood]

I still do not understand why people want to play with creating a volcano, they can be so dangerous. I mentioned in another thread I accidentally overheated a cream soap and it created a volcano which I was not able to stir down fast enough. My cabinets did not like it at all and it was a mess to clean up. So I now what temps very closely so my hp does not volcano. A high heat soap can also burn skin badly. I forgot to mention that just like a volcano this on spewed up some of the hot soap so if I had been standing over it it could have hit my face. No thank

I dont consider it playing with a volcano. For me its part of how I know what stage the soap is in. I expect at least 2 medium volcanoes which are easy to beat down and then it begins to gel.I dont let it get to the point that its high enough to splatter. Volcanoes are how I know the lye is doing its job. I never cook my HP for hours unless its liquid soap. Its usually around 40 minutes or when it gets to Vaseline stage.

 

[cmzaha]

I dont consider it playing with a volcano. For me its part of how I know what stage the soap is in. I expect at least 2 medium volcanoes which are easy to beat down and then it begins to gel.I dont let it get to the point that its high enough to splatter. Volcanoes are how I know the lye is doing its job. I never cook my HP for hours unless its liquid soap. Its usually around 40 minutes or when it gets to Vaseline stage.

HP do not need to volcano to be a good hp soap. The only thing you really know is your soap is overheating, not what stage it is. If you hp in a crock pot you bring the soap to a good trace put the lid on turn the crock pot on low and let it go. You will see if folding inward and the color changing. After it has all folded in on itself it is pretty much done. Test for zap and pour. It takes a total of about 20 min to cook. Can't get much more simple than that. The soap is being overheated to the point of a volcano, not that the lye is doing it's job as you state. It is so un-necessary to take such a risk for no reason. Also will not assure a soap will not be lye heavy.

 

[msunnerstood]

There are many ways and methods to hot process soap. I happen to do it high temperature.I have seen lots of soapers out there that do it the same way that I do it but that does not mean that my way is the only way. I have never burned a batch of soap and i zap test every batch

 

[szaza]

Thank you so much @DeeAnna ! So much new information! I wish there was a starry eyed emoji here..
I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'll probably have to read everything again one of these days to make sure all the new info sticks in my head, but you made things so much clearer and it's so cool to get a bit more insight in how the process works or behaves on a chemical level.
I also realize now why everyone is always talking about the zap test. I hadn't dared try it yet, but seems like that's really the only way to determine if soap is fully saponified/safe. I always just went by "it has gelled, so it must be safe", but I guess that's not as reliable as I thought. (I put my soap pot in the oven and waited - without stirring - until all the soap was in gel phase, then got it out and stirred in my additives). Time to learn about the zap test!

 

[cmzaha]

There are many ways and methods to hot process soap. I happen to do it high temperature.I have seen lots of soapers out there that do it the same way that I do it but that does not mean that my way is the only way. I have never burned a batch of soap and i zap test every batch

When I started soaping and started with hp there was really one way most did it and it was not playing around with creating volcanos. If you want to play with it fine, but it can be dangerous. Hopefully yours never decides to spew up before you get it stirred down, but it can cause lots of damage to floors, cabinets and yourself. It also does nothing different to the soap. It is not a question of burning the soap it is you that can get seriously burnt. Don't want to believe it that is okay, just remember it can happen.

Thank you so much @DeeAnna ! So much new information! I wish there was a starry eyed emoji here..
I'm a bit overwhelmed. I'll probably have to read everything again one of these days to make sure all the new info sticks in my head, but you made things so much clearer and it's so cool to get a bit more insight in how the process works or behaves on a chemical level.
I also realize now why everyone is always talking about the zap test. I hadn't dared try it yet, but seems like that's really the only way to determine if soap is fully saponified/safe. I always just went by "it has gelled, so it must be safe", but I guess that's not as reliable as I thought. (I put my soap pot in the oven and waited - without stirring - until all the soap was in gel phase, then got it out and stirred in my additives). Time to learn about the zap test!

Yep the oven works great. In fact I do any re-batching in the oven because it gets a better melt. Nope a gelled soap can still be zappy if one misses measuring their lye and add to much. To zap test wet a finger, most suggest gloved fingers, swipe your soap and tough the tip of your tongue. You will feel a jolt if it zaps, stinging is not a zap. All soap stings my tongue when I test it

 

[msunnerstood]

When I started soaping and started with hp there was really one way most did it and it was not playing around with creating volcanos. If you want to play with it fine, but it can be dangerous. Hopefully yours never decides to spew up before you get it stirred down, but it can cause lots of damage to floors, cabinets and yourself. It also does nothing different to the soap. It is not a question of burning the soap it is you that can get seriously burnt. Don't want to believe it that is okay, just remember it can happen.


Yep the oven works great. In fact I do any re-batching in the oven because it gets a better melt. Nope a gelled soap can still be zappy if one misses measuring their lye and add to much. To zap test wet a finger, most suggest gloved fingers, swipe your soap and tough the tip of your tongue. You will feel a jolt if it zaps, stinging is not a zap. All soap stings my tongue when I test it

Im not sure why you keep using the word "Play" other than being confrontational. I do not "Play" I do not force a volcano but I do expect one because it always happens using the method Ive been using. A method I learned from other soapers. I take all precautions and have reespect for the dangers. I do not pretend to have all the answers but I do accept that not all soapers do things the same way.

 

[DeeAnna]

...I always just went by "it has gelled, so it must be safe", but I guess that's not as reliable as I thought....

Okay, now that I've set your soapy world on its head, let me set it back upright.

I think a person with a reasonable bit of experience can do a pretty good job most of the time when judging whether a soap is properly made or not. If you've had good results with your soap when you've made it a certain way in the past and you see certain characteristic signs as you make yet another batch, you can certainly use that information to give you confidence that your soap is going to be fine. Going through the gel phase might be a fairly reliable sign for you that all is going well. There's nothing wrong with relying on that experience as a guide.

I make more CP soap than HP, but I do the same thing with my CP soap -- when I make a batch, I pay attention to how it behaves while I mix the batter, how it looks and feels while it's in the mold, and later how it looks and feels when I take the soap log out of the mold. Based on those cues and my experience, I'm pretty sure I can reasonably expect in 12-18 hours to have finished soap that's zap free.

Even so, I still zap test to doublecheck that all is truly okay. The signs I rely on are helpful, but they are not a proof-positive check that there is no excess lye. The zap test or an excess alkalinity test are the tests that provide that information.

While there's nothing wrong with using experience as a guide, I believe it's important to not get super rigid about seeing certain changes in the soap. Sometimes soap doesn't do its normal thing and it still turns out fine. Maybe some soapers' insistence on seeing definite signs in the soap is due to a lack of confidence and lack of experience -- they utterly don't know what to think or do if the soap doesn't go through a definite, obvious vaseline-y stage, for example. With more experience, they might realize they cooked a lot of water out of the soap, so it can't do vaseline any more. Or they might realize that the soap had been cooked for X minutes, so it was likely to be saponified just from the time spent in the cook. Just musing here.

If I scaled up to a larger or smaller mold or otherwise radically changed how I make soap, I'd be less confident that past experience is a good predictor for future results. I'd keep a closer eye on temps, overall appearance, etc. until I was more comfortable with the changed process. And I'd definitely still zap test.

 

[cmzaha]

Im not sure why you keep using the word "Play" other than being confrontational. I do not "Play" I do not force a volcano but I do expect one because it always happens using the method Ive been using. A method I learned from other soapers. I take all precautions and have reespect for the dangers. I do not pretend to have all the answers but I do accept that not all soapers do things the same way.

If you want to take the work play confrontational that is your choice. I said playing around with a volcano not playing at soapmaking. If if works great for you wonderful, but a new soaper may try this method and become seriously injured or at the least ruin expensive cabinets. There is no point to doing hp this way. Cook on low without removing the lid for approx 20 min to gel stage and pour. No volcano and perfect hp soap. Want it more fluid use more liquid.

 

[szaza]

Yep the oven works great. In fact I do any re-batching in the oven because it gets a better melt. Nope a gelled soap can still be zappy if one misses measuring their lye and add to much. To zap test wet a finger, most suggest gloved fingers, swipe your soap and tough the tip of your tongue. You will feel a jolt if it zaps, stinging is not a zap. All soap stings my tongue when I test it

Thanks for the great clear and easy explanation of the zap test! I tried it with some soaps that I knew should be safe and next time I make soap I'll be able to try it "for real" Also great tip to do rebatching in the oven! I'll probably rebatch the soaps I made for this experiment, so it's good to know that works well in the oven