Handling Volcanoes Without Panicking

[DianaMoon]

I am intrigued by the High Temperature Hot Process method. It seems that you should expect a volcano when you use this method.

If I mix in a vessel that is at least 4 times bigger than the soap recipe, will that solve the problem of overflow? Yes, I realize that volcanos gonna volcano, I just don't want it to overflow the container. I do realize that it's somewhat physically awkward to be sticking your arms in something that's large while the batter is raw, so I have to take that into account.

I do not make huge recipes, usually 1000 grams at most. That would equate roughly to a 2 gallon bucket.

 

[AliOop]

As someone who has done a fair amount of HTFHP, may I make a friendly suggestion?

For your own peace of mind, don't think of them as volcanoes. In nature, volcanoes are uncontrollable and dangerous eruptions, even explosions. Picturing your soap batter as a potential explosion adds unnecessary stress and fear to the process.

Instead, think of this as an expansion. Your batter is simply expanding due to the heat... just like cakes and breads rise (expand) in the oven while baking. You control the expansion by lowering the heat, and by using a whisk (not a stickblender!) to release the trapped hot air from the batter. For a 1000-gram batch, a long whisk and container that is 3x that size should be sufficient to prevent an overflow.

FWIW, I've only had an overflow once. It was my own fault for not paying attention to my oil temps, which were far higher than recommended even for HTHP. All other batches have been just fine, with normal expansions that were easily stirred down. Based on that experience, my advice is to pay very close attention to the temp limits; they are part of the safety process, just like using PPE, not pouring water onto dry NaOH, etc.

For me, HTHP is a fun process for making a quick batch of HP soap on the stove or in the microwave. I hope you give it a try and let us know how it goes.

 

[cmzaha]

I had one eruption once I could not stir down in time and it trashed my cabinets. So in my opinion I do not call it fun or worth the risk to self or cabinets. Sorry to disagree with Ali... Mine was not even an HTFHP soap. I just do not understand the fascination of pushing one's luck with overheating soap and the risk of the volcano/expansion over the pot. No thanks. Come to think of it happened twice for me and once I was lucky that my pot was in the sink, that time it was LS soap paste that went over.

 

[TheGecko]

I just do not understand the fascination of pushing one's luck with overheating soap and the risk of the volcano/expansion over the pot.

I don't understand that either. I can see wanting to make more soap...it's why I Master Batch and why I just bought two new molds, but not to the extent of potentially harming myself with super hot oils or a huge mess.

 

[AliOop]

I can certainly understand folks not wanting to try HTHP, especially if they've had a bad experience. Hot soap paste on my cabinets would have turned me off to it, for sure!

One of the great benefits of this forum is the wide range of experiences, so that people can get not just tips, but also warnings before they decide what to try... or not...

 

[DianaMoon]

As someone who has done a fair amount of HTFHP, may I make a friendly suggestion?

For your own peace of mind, don't think of them as volcanoes. In nature, volcanoes are uncontrollable and dangerous eruptions, even explosions. Picturing your soap batter as a potential explosion adds unnecessary stress and fear to the process.

Instead, think of this as an expansion. Your batter is simply expanding due to the heat... just like cakes and breads rise (expand) in the oven while baking. You control the expansion by lowering the heat, and by using a whisk (not a stickblender!) to release the trapped hot air from the batter. For a 1000-gram batch, a long whisk and container that is 3x that size should be sufficient to prevent an overflow.

FWIW, I've only had an overflow once. It was my own fault for not paying attention to my oil temps, which were far higher than recommended even for HTHP. All other batches have been just fine, with normal expansions that were easily stirred down. Based on that experience, my advice is to pay very close attention to the temp limits; they are part of the safety process, just like using PPE, not pouring water onto dry NaOH, etc.

For me, HTHP is a fun process for making a quick batch of HP soap on the stove or in the microwave. I hope you give it a try and let us know how it goes.

Why use a stick blender at all with HTHP? Why not just whisk the whole thing, given that the temps are so high?

Thanks so much and absolutely appreciate the suggestions. I will certainly report my experiences here.

The word volcano works for me because eruption implies that the batter will spurt, as opposed to bubble. However cmzaha has said her batter did erupt. This is concerning.

Are there additives that foster volcanoes?

I had one eruption once I could not stir down in time and it trashed my cabinets. So in my opinion I do not call it fun or worth the risk to self or cabinets. Sorry to disagree with Ali... Mine was not even an HTFHP soap. I just do not understand the fascination of pushing one's luck with overheating soap and the risk of the volcano/expansion over the pot. No thanks. Come to think of it happened twice for me and once I was lucky that my pot was in the sink, that time it was LS soap paste that went over.

So, this was an "eruption" that spurted out? The volcanoes/eruptions I've seen (only in videos) bubbled over - they didn't spurt.

I had one eruption once I could not stir down in time and it trashed my cabinets. So in my opinion I do not call it fun or worth the risk to self or cabinets. Sorry to disagree with Ali... Mine was not even an HTFHP soap. I just do not understand the fascination of pushing one's luck with overheating soap and the risk of the volcano/expansion over the pot. No thanks. Come to think of it happened twice for me and once I was lucky that my pot was in the sink, that time it was LS soap paste that went over.

Do you know why the eruption was so fierce?

 

[Hani m. Amaik]

I am intrigued by the High Temperature Hot Process method. It seems that you should expect a volcano when you use this method.

If I mix in a vessel that is at least 4 times bigger than the soap recipe, will that solve the problem of overflow? Yes, I realize that volcanos gonna volcano, I just don't want it to overflow the container. I do realize that it's somewhat physically awkward to be sticking your arms in something that's large while the batter is raw, so I have to take that into account.

I do not make huge recipes, usually 1000 grams at most. That would equate roughly to a 2 gallon bucket.

Hi, have you tried adding
salt and water?
Salt increases the boiling point, prevents eruption and removes some of the impurities from the soap.

 

[DianaMoon]

Hi, have you tried adding salt?
Salt increases the boiling point, prevents eruption and removes some of the impurities from the soap.

No, I haven't done it yet.

 

[AliOop]

I use a stick blender at the beginning of HTHP to speed up the process. Once it starts expanding, I stop using the stick blender and only use the whisk.

Heat is the primary causal factor for expansion of the batter. Besides the direct heat from the stove or microwave, additional heat can be created from stickblending, sugary additives like honey and molasses, and acidic additives like vinegar, which create an exothermic (heat) reaction with the NaOH.

Other than the one volcano that I had due to oil temps that were far too high, my batter never spurts or erupts. It only puffs up gently and is easily stirred down. Still, I never walk away or even turn away during the process. The puffing can happen quickly.

 

[Kcryss]

Like @AliOop I soap at high temps as well. I've never had a anything that couldn't be stirred down with a whisk. My oils and lye water are within ~20 to 25 degrees (f) when I mix the two. Not sure if that makes a difference or not, it's just what I do.

I've tried being patient and soaping at lower temps, but I just don't seem to have it in me. I always go back to how I started.

As others have said though, never leave the area and keep your eyes on it at all times.

I used a panic a bit when I first started making soap and the volcano occurred and would stir down right away. Now I wait until it puffs up to a specific height before whisking it down.

For the "just in case" scenarios, I do use old newspaper under my crockpot and the surrounding area to catch any spills or drips from utensils.

 

[DianaMoon]

I use a stick blender at the beginning of HTHP to speed up the process. Once it starts expanding, I stop using the stick blender and only use the whisk.

Heat is the primary causal factor for expansion of the batter. Besides the direct heat from the stove or microwave, additional heat can be created from stickblending, sugary additives like honey and molasses, and acidic additives like vinegar, which create an exothermic (heat) reaction with the NaOH.

Other than the one volcano that I had due to oil temps that were far too high, my batter never spurts or erupts. It only puffs up gently and is easily stirred down. Still, I never walk away or even turn away during the process. The puffing can happen quickly.

Do you remember the temp that caused your volcano?

So far I've been cold-processing using the "is it warm to the touch method" but for this I decided to spend a few bucks for an infrared thermometer. I thought it'd be much more expensive than it was.

In one of the YT vids I saw they heat the oil up to, I think, 225F. But as we know bad info abounds. What temps do you think are optimal for this method?

 

[AliOop]

My oils were over 240ºF the time they erupted.

My typical oil temps for HTHP are 215ºF, and I use freshly-made lye which is probably around 180º-200ºF.

I've also heard that 225ºF is a safe temp for the oils, but I like to leave a little margin for error. Plus, the mixture gets hotter after you combine the lye solution and oils.

 

[DianaMoon]

If the lye is 180F then there's a more than 10 degree difference between the two, which I've always read is the ideal.

 

[AliOop]

If the lye is 180F then there's a more than 10 degree difference between the two, which I've always read is the ideal.

That's actually a soaping myth. Or more accurately, it's something new soapers are taught in order to avoid false trace before they know what it is and how to address it. With your oils that hot, false trace is not going to be a problem for you.

Some folks actually use the heat transfer method, which calls for using just-mixed, smoking hot lye solution to melt their room-temp hard oils, after which they mix in their room-temp liquid oils. This method of soapmaking works just fine despite the huge difference (often 100ºF difference) between the lye solution and the oils.

Bottom line, don't worry about matching temps. It really isn't something to worry about unless you have a situation where false trace might happen, e.g., room-temp lye solution with high-melt-point oils. Even then, it doesn't hurt the soap as long as you blend it out.

 

[DianaMoon]

"That's actually a soaping myth."

Another myth exploded!

Oops, perhaps shattered would be a better word to use given the context.....

Do you recommend less lye in hot process? DeAnna's Classic Bells page had a sentence about that. But I am planning on doing a 100% Castille, so I may stick to my usual 33% (I know that 100% olive oil calls for more than that but I'm taking into account DeAnna's tip so I'm splitting the difference.)

Thanks for your help - I'm doing a batch tomorrow when I get the last of my utensils. I want to be very careful about doing this.

 

[AliOop]

Do you recommend less lye in hot process?

The amount of lye needed to saponify your oils is going to remain the same whether you do CP, CPOP, HP, HTHP, LTHP, or HTFHP.

But since you referred to 33%, you probably meant "lower lye concentration" and not "less lye." Lower lye concentration means you are using more water to dissolve the same amount of lye.

For any type of HP soapmaking, the amount of water used to dissolve the lye is typically higher than what is used in CP -- which is another way of saying, you will want to use a "lower lye concentration" (which again, is very different than "less lye").

A 33% lye concentration is typical for CP. For HP, I recommend a 25% lye concentration to start. Due to the high heat of the cooking, a lot of water will evaporate, and the soap batter can dry out very quickly and become very unworkable. So more water (lower lye concentration) is recommended for HP, and especially HTHP.

Once you've made a few batches, you can play around a bit with the lye concentration. I've successfully used a 28% lye concentration. But any higher than that and my soap is just too dry and hard to mold.

 

[DianaMoon]

The amount of lye needed to saponify your oils is going to remain the same whether you do CP, CPOP, HP, HTHP, LTHP, or HTFHP.

But since you referred to 33%, you probably meant "lower lye concentration" and not "less lye." Lower lye concentration means you are using more water to dissolve the same amount of lye.

For any type of HP soapmaking, the amount of water used to dissolve the lye is typically higher than what is used in CP -- which is another way of saying, you will want to use a "lower lye concentration" (which again, is very different than "less lye").

A 33% lye concentration is typical for CP. For HP, I recommend a 25% lye concentration to start. Due to the high heat of the cooking, a lot of water will evaporate, and the soap batter can dry out very quickly and become very unworkable. So more water (lower lye concentration) is recommended for HP, and especially HTHP.

Once you've made a few batches, you can play around a bit with the lye concentration. I've successfully used a 28% lye concentration. But any higher than that and my soap is just too dry and hard to mold.

Yes to all.

In fact, I got this entire idea of HTHP from this site: Ultimate HP Soap and I wondered at the water discount. I loved the idea of dispensing with a crockpot - actually I loved the whole idea - but I was skeptical of some of the info, which is why I came here.

8.96 ounces water (This is a 28% water concentration and is a very high discount for hot process soap. It will result in a very thick soap at a faster rate. For a more hydrated soap, use 32% or 10.24 ounces or the full 38% at 12.16) - 4.07 ounces NaOH.
​

When I plug her numbers into Soap Calc with your 25% lye concentration, I get the same amount of lye: 4.07 ounces, but way more water: 12.23 oz. I am definitely going with your suggestion. (And this is a perfect illustration that it's not "less lye" but "lower lye concentration," i.e., "more water.")

PS/Update: I've since learned that Ultimate HP Soap is well-known to the community & to you in particular. I'm a very on-again off-again soaper. I've just read the previous threads on this subject which date back to 2020.

PPS In reading one of the old threads, Kim asked you about stainless steel. She pointed out temperature limits of plastics ("The highest temp rating I've found in professional grade containers is 210F for polycarbonate (all sellers of HDPE and PP have stated 180F as max temp...."). I just bought a 5 liter bucket that is grade 2 polypro.... various websites give the limit as 266F. That's higher than what Kim cited but still, it is approaching the limit. I'm going to look around for a suitable stainless steel vessel.

 

[DeeAnna]

///Do you recommend less lye in hot process? DeAnna's Classic Bells page had a sentence about that...

I don't recommend using less lye for hot process soap making. Once you set the weights and kinds of fats and the superfat for a recipe, the NaOH (lye) weight doesn't change no matter what soap making method you use.

What I do recommend is using more water when making soap with a hot process method because more water often evaporates during HP. So it's a good idea to start with a little more water to compensate for the evaporation.

Gonna repeat myself to be really clear -- the weight of NaOH (lye) won't change for a specific recipe. The weight of water can vary, however, depending on your goals and the soap making method you're using.

 

[AliOop]

Thanks @DeeAnna for chiming in and confirming. I am always so relieved when what I said matches up with what you say.

@DianaMoon yes, I do like the scientific info given in the Ultimate Guides. However, I will admit that the wording can be a bit obscure at times.

I don't think she was wrong per se, but I personally wouldn't start with the lower water/higher lye concentration the author apparently suggested for HTHP. More water makes it easier for the first-timer to get the batter into the mold without the final soap looking like dried up chunks. When you are comfortable with the process, you can try reducing water (increasing lye concentration) by a few percentage points at a time if you'd like. That will reduce the amount of evaporation needed during the cure time.

As for the type of container, while I do prefer stainless steel, that is obviously not an option if you are going to follow her microwave method of HTHP. I've used #2 plastic containers for that in the past without any problem.

 

[DianaMoon]

I don't recommend using less lye for hot process soap making. Once you set the weights and kinds of fats and the superfat for a recipe, the NaOH (lye) weight doesn't change no matter what soap making method you use.

What I do recommend is using more water when making soap with a hot process method because more water often evaporates during HP. So it's a good idea to start with a little more water to compensate for the evaporation.

Gonna repeat myself to be really clear -- the weight of NaOH (lye) won't change for a specific recipe. The weight of water can vary, however, depending on your goals and the soap making method you're using.

OMG thank you & AliOop - I just had a major insight yesterday. The weight of the lye is a function of the weight & type of oils in a recipe.

I honestly had not realized that. I thought that amount of lye was a function of the amount of water and the oil type/weight.

No no no.

Thank you both.

Of course, the question as to why to put more or less water arises, but that's another question for another day.

Hello, l just wanted to find out, do you add form agents, and if so at what at

Hello, just wanted to find out if you add foaming agents to your soap, if so, at what point do you add them. Personally l have had volcanoes each time l added forming agents before adding the lye solution .

I don't know what a foaming agent is. Do you mean sugar?