Ghost swirl without the oven

[SoapDaddy70]

Read all of Auntie Claras articles on the Ghost Swirl and understand the idea and concept behind it. My question is - Is it possible to do without using oven process. My oven is older and I don’t think I could get it to be at 60C (140F). Has anybody achieved a Ghost Swirl without an oven. Seems like it would just be dumb luck if you could get one part to gel and the other part to not gel without precise temp control. I am light years away from trying this but really interested to see if it’s even worth trying without the oven process.

 

[earlene]

Yes, you don't have to CPOP. Just insulate the mold in another way. Towels/blanket, heating pad, whatever you normally do to facilitate gel.

 

[AliOop]

Also, I don't think it matters if one part or both parts gel, does it? I thought it was the difference in water:lye concentration that creates the color differentiation.

 

[Dawni]

I once did a Castile ghost swirl with no oven, and I don't think it gelled (for sure I didn't force it to) - but you will see the difference in "translucency" of each part, sometimes early on but more as it cures. It's quite fascinating really. I should do that again...

 

[DeeAnna]

Also, I don't think it matters if one part or both parts gel, does it? I thought it was the difference in water:lye concentration that creates the color differentiation.

Not exactly. The critical thing for a ghost swirl is to create a situation where parts of the soap can turn liquid (gel) while other parts of the soap stay solid.

Any set of conditions that causes a block of soap to do this will work. It just so happens the easiest way to get a swirly effect is to play with variations in water content while controlling the temperature of the soap.

Soap with more water tends to turn into a liquid (a gel) at a lower temperature. Soap that gels looks more translucent and deeper in color.​

​

Soap made with less water won't become a gel until it reaches a higher temp. Soap that doesn't gel looks more opaque and lighter in color.​

This differences in the gelling temperature is why the ghost swirl happens. But it won't happen UNLESS the overall temperature of the soap rises above the lower gel temp AND stays below the higher gel temp. Regardless of water content, if you cool the soap sufficiently, it won't ghost swirl because none of it gels. If you CPOP at 170F for sufficiently long, the soap won't ghost swirl because all of it gels.

Think about the bullseye look of a partial gel. The center of the soap gets hot enough to turn liquid (gel), but the edges stay cool enough so they stay solid. This is an example of the "ghost swirl effect" in a soap with a constant water content. Not a very pretty look and not very swirly, granted, but the conditions that trigger this are the same as for a ghost swirl.

When I've done a ghost swirl, the soap doesn't look like it obviously is in gel, because a lot of it isn't liquidy. The parts that gel are just thin layers between layers of solid-ish soap. The overall effect is that the soap appears like it's not gelling.

 

[SoapDaddy70]

Not exactly. The critical thing for a ghost swirl is to create a situation where parts of the soap can turn liquid (gel) while other parts of the soap stay solid.

Any set of conditions that causes a block of soap to do this will work. It just so happens the easiest way to get a swirly effect is to play with variations in water content while controlling the temperature of the soap.

Soap with more water tends to turn into a liquid (a gel) at a lower temperature. Soap that gels looks more translucent and deeper in color.​

​

Soap made with less water won't become a gel until it reaches a higher temp. Soap that doesn't gel looks more opaque and lighter in color.​

This differences in the gelling temperature is why the ghost swirl happens. But it won't happen UNLESS the overall temperature of the soap rises above the lower gel temp AND stays below the higher gel temp. Regardless of water content, if you cool the soap sufficiently, it won't ghost swirl because none of it gels. If you CPOP at 170F for sufficiently long, the soap won't ghost swirl because all of it gels.

Think about the bullseye look of a partial gel. The center of the soap gets hot enough to turn liquid (gel), but the edges stay cool enough so they stay solid. This is an example of the "ghost swirl effect" in a soap with a constant water content. Not a very pretty look and not very swirly, granted, but the conditions that trigger this are the same as for a ghost swirl.

When I've done a ghost swirl, the soap doesn't look like it obviously is in gel, because a lot of it isn't liquidy. The parts that gel are just thin layers between layers of solid-ish soap. The overall effect is that the soap appears like it's not gelling.

DeeAnna,
With your thorough explanation it leads me to believe trying a ghost swirl without using an oven and controlled temperatures is a daunting task. Wrapping with towels or figuring out what setting to have on a heating pad and how long to leave it on to get the high water soap batter to gel without the low water soap also gelling seems like it would just be a roll of the dice.

 

[AliOop]

Thanks for that info @DeeAnna - very helpful since I was going to attempt it without CPOPing it.

 

[Dawni]

I encourage you to try it even without controlled conditions. Might not be enough to convince you but see this. I don't have an oven either and I didn't take any temps. I've seen and read others do it without an oven either.... But I will say that I work and leave the soap to saponify in a hot kitchen (it's always hot n humid where I am). Could be partly why I did get a ghost swirl without the oven..

 

[DeeAnna]

...trying a ghost swirl without using an oven and controlled temperatures is a daunting task....

I'm with Dawni -- you should let go of that daunted feeling and just try it. I get the impression you're overthinking things and setting the bar way too high for yourself.

And put me in perspective too. I'm a science geek. I can launch into a science-y lecture about saponification and make it sound daunting too.

But you can still make soap despite my ability to make it sound impossibly complicated, right? If so, then it's entirely within your ability right this minute with the equipment you already have to do a ghost swirl.

If a ghost swirl doesn't quite pan out the first time due to inexperience -- and yes this happened to me -- I just remind myself that even PhDs don't always get it right the first time and I try it again. Make it fun. Keep it soapy.

 

[earlene]

I agree, do it and don't let not using an oven stop you. I travel a lot (well, up until most of the past year) and make soap when I travel. Most motel rooms don't have an oven, and I still manage to gel soaps when I want to. How, you may ask - wrapping well and placing inside a dresser drawer is one way that works. Anyway, strict temperature control is not really necessary. Regardless of gel or not, the portions with disparate water content will still totally look different from each other when the soap sets up. And as it looses more water, the differences become more pronounced in my experience. The ghost swirls remain easily visible years later as they continue to loose water.

 

[linne1gi]

Read all of Auntie Claras articles on the Ghost Swirl and understand the idea and concept behind it. My question is - Is it possible to do without using oven process. My oven is older and I don’t think I could get it to be at 60C (140F). Has anybody achieved a Ghost Swirl without an oven. Seems like it would just be dumb luck if you could get one part to gel and the other part to not gel without precise temp control. I am light years away from trying this but really interested to see if it’s even worth trying without the oven process.

When I made the "ghost swirl" soap - I did not use the CPOP method - because you don't want the low water part of the batter to gel in order to get the best swirl. I just insulated my soap with towels. That way the high water part gels and the low water part does not - and you get the different colors.

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks for that info @DeeAnna - very helpful since I was going to attempt it without CPOPing it.

It's possible to do a ghost swirl without CPOP, but you probably want to insulate it and/or use a heating pad in that case. Or live in the Philippines like Dawni does. The goal, however you get there, is to get the soap warm enough so the high water parts gel but not so hot that the low water parts also gel.

I wouldn't use a recipe with lots of sugars in it, nor one that has a lot of coconut oil in it, due to sugars and CO causing rapid heating. A sedate, well-behaved basic recipe is ideal. I used this recipe for the December 2015 ghost swirl challenge --

Castor Bean Oil 5%
Coconut Oil 15%
Lard 80%

If I looked carefully in good light, I was able to tell when the swirl was "ghosting" -- I could see the layers of gelled soap between layers of not-gelled soap. But the effect is subtle. I had to look and think about it for awhile.

Gently poking the soap with a toothpick or chopstick can help you figure out where the layers are gelling (softer) versus not (firmer), although I realize soap that's been poked on might not look the best.

 

[glendam]

I just attempted it with a small column mold. Used a heating pad and covered with towels but even so only the bottom high water parts seems to have gelled. It has the better definition, the other bars still have a distinct ghost swirl but not as strong.
I thought about putting it in my counter top oven ( which seems to start at 150 F but has a heating area before that in the dial) but it didn’t fit.

 

[AliOop]

@DeeAnna the recipe you posted is very close to my "regular" recipe (minus goat milk powder and tussah silk). That's a plus, since I'm very familiar with how it plays.

So, when you could see the swirl "ghosting" did you remove it from the oven or other heat source, so as to prevent the other part of the soap from gelling?

 

[DeeAnna]

I didn't remove it from the warm environment, but I could have if I was confident the whole thing was at a consistent temp. Like Glendam just said, some parts of the soap could be cooler and other parts warmer, and all I could check was the top.

I've made the lard-castor-coconut soap a number of times over the years, as well as an even simpler 15-20% CO, 80-85% lard version. I think this type of soap takes a little longer than other recipes I make to cure into its best lather, but it is truly a nice soap if you don't mind being patient. I also enjoy the simplicity.

 

[Dawni]

I just realized that my FB page shows the ghost swirl in the Castile I made without an oven and controlled temps better than the pic I posted earlier...

Here, a screenshot