Gardener's bar crumbling ?

[Malleebird]

Can anyone suggest why my new gardener's bar might crumble when I cut it ?
A bit of background - the first one I made on 29/4 with my formulation looks great...but haven't tried yet.
Second one - using pumice & borax and very old and dodgy "palm"oil (Frymasta)... looked okay until I cut it when it crumbled on last half of cut. I did post about this on forum...I suspected the dodgy Frymasta or that I cut it too soon.
Third attempt yesterday (borax & pumice version) - same thing crumbled 1/2 -2/3 of way through the cut
I was so disappointed as I really thought I'd nailed it this time -
My formula - Soy wax -30%
CO - 20%
Olive - 25%
Tallow - 25%
Castor - 5%

33% Lye concentration - 2% SF discount

Lauric -10, Myristic - 5, Palmitic - 14, Stearic - 32, Ricinolenic -5, Oleic - 26, Linoleic - 4.

Added 30g borax(per 500g), dissolved in boiling, plus 2 tsp sugar... although again, by the time I was ready to use it had turned back to sludge, but it does dissolve instantly when you put it in the lye solution. Other additives were the pumice, orange rind & annotto which I added to the warm oils.... and eo at trace. Temp of oil & lye were both around 45C + when I combined.
It all looked so good... I insulated well after pouring...left for about 18 hours before unwrapping and cutting. To have the same thing happen again
I'm hoping someone can tell me what I did wrong this time... I don't give up !
Will try and post pic...but having problems with that too !

 

[Obsidian]

Was it hard crumbly or soft crumbly? I'm thinking with that recipe you may have waited too long to cut.
Also, using a knife with a thick spine acts like a wedge and can cause breaking when about halfway through a cut.

Pictures really will help a lot.

 

[penelopejane]

Also how much pumice and orange rind did you use? At what trace did you pour? Sometimes additives sink to the bottom if you pour at really light trace and then the soap crumbles when you go to cut it.

 

[Malleebird]

Was it hard crumbly or soft crumbly? I'm thinking with that recipe you may have waited too long to cut.
Also, using a knife with a thick spine acts like a wedge and can cause breaking when about halfway through a cut.

Pictures really will help a lot.

I'd call it soft crumbly. I was using a commercial corrugated cutter which I ran under the hot tap between cuts. The first part of the cut was like going through firm butter...and if I held the bar I was cutting hard against the cutter, through to the finish of the cut, it was a bit better, but still not good. Yes, perhaps it was too long to wait...thought I'd go for individual moulds next time too.
Will try again later to get pic.

 

[Obsidian]

Soft crumbly is usually from cutting too soon. You want your loaf to feel like a block of cheddar cheese.
It takes a bit of practice to get the timing right.

 

[Malleebird]

Also how much pumice and orange rind did you use? At what trace did you pour? Sometimes additives sink to the bottom if you pour at really light trace and then the soap crumbles when you go to cut it.

2 Tbs of each, which I guess is quite a bit for 500g, and poured at a medium trace. I was pleased with their distribution through the soap when I cut though...it was very even, so I don't think that's the problem... but thanks.

 

[KiwiMoose]

2 Tbs of each, which I guess is quite a bit for 500g, and poured at a medium trace. I was pleased with their distribution through the soap when I cut though...it was very even, so I don't think that's the problem... but thanks.

I reckon that might be a bit much for a 500g batch and it was purely just too much pumice and orange that made the soap crumble - not enough soap to hold the scratchy bits together : )

 

[Malleebird]

Yes, you're probably right KiwiMoose I will try and get some photos up though....later, just got a few jobs to do first....

 

[Malleebird]

Finally....the last photo is the first one that I was talking about, made on 29/4.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Finally....the last photo is the first one that I was talking about, made on 29/4.

Yup I reckon too much of your additives, and not enough actual soap to hold it together. And the first one gelled by the looks of it and the others didn't? With that amount of hard oils that can make it crumbly if you don't gel I have found.

 

[Malleebird]

Thanks Kiwi Moose and everyone...I've got a lot to learn... hopefully will get there
Take 3 tomorrow ... and I'll reduce the orange & pumice by 50%. Perhaps I should back off on the hard oils too...the first one I did was 65%.... yesterdays was 75%.

 

[Ford]

I can't comment on the contents of your recipe. But 1st time making pumice bar, was hard to cut at 12 hours. Not sure why I felt it was ready to cut. 2nd time made it early in day and babysat and cut at about 7 hours. Cut the salt bar at about 5 hours also. I used PVC pipe with freezer paper. (bought individual molds, did NOT like them at all)

 

[Malleebird]

Ummm, I just don't know....the first one I cut at 8 hours, the second at 18 and they both did exactly the same thing and were similar hardness ?

Thanks for reminder about tubes.... I used to use them a lot, but cardboard not PVC. We can't buy freezer paper in the supermarket in Australia.... at least I've never seen it. I used to use laminating sheets to line the tubes, didn't buy them for that purpose but I had (still have) a big box of them... still lucky to have heaps of tubes too. (Off cuts from years of selling peacock feathers ! )
Will try round bars tomorrow...not that they'll be any easier to cut if there's a problem.

 

[penelopejane]

Ummm, I just don't know....the first one I cut at 8 hours, the second at 18 and they both did exactly the same thing and were similar hardness ?

Thanks for reminder about tubes.... I used to use them a lot, but cardboard not PVC. We can't buy freezer paper in the supermarket in Australia.... at least I've never seen it. I used to use laminating sheets to line the tubes, didn't buy them for that purpose but I had (still have) a big box of them... still lucky to have heaps of tubes too. (Off cuts from years of selling peacock feathers ! )
Will try round bars tomorrow...not that they'll be any easier to cut if there's a problem.

Their freezer paper is equivalent to our GladBake.

 

[user 29721]

My formula - Soy wax -30%
CO - 20%
Olive - 25%
Tallow - 25%
Castor - 5%

That's 105%

 

[Malleebird]

Sorry typo...20% tallow....

 

[Zany_in_CO]

When formulating on SoapCalc I troubleshoot bars by looking at two things: Sat/Unsat Ratio and Soap Bar Quality where it gives you the recommended range.

Your formula - Soy wax 30%, CO 20%, Olive 25%, Tallow 20%, Castor 5%

The Sat/Unst Ratio (aim for around 50/50) is heavy with Saturated Fats

Soap Bar Quality: Hardness too high; Creamy too high; Iodine too low; INS too high.
Note: An INS value of 160 is the so-called "perfect soap" by Dr. Bob McDaniels who
invented the notion of an INS value (Iodine 'n Sap).

Easy Remedy: Lower soy wax to 10% and Up the olive oil to 45%

Sat/Unsat Ratio is more balanced.

Soap Bar Qualities are within the recommended range.

This is the way I learned to use SoapCalc to formulate my soap bars. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but helpful when first leaning how to design soaps. Please note, I prefer to use the default numbers provided for water (38%) and SF (5%) first time around. I can always tweak if needed. Most of the time they work just fine.

Range for most dry ingredients: 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon PPO (Per Pound Oils)

HTH

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Added 30g borax(per 500g), dissolved in boiling, plus 2 tsp sugar... although again, by the time I was ready to use it had turned back to sludge, but it does dissolve instantly when you put it in the lye solution.

Borax tends to particulate out and become hard when left to cool. Not recommended. The amount of sugar sounds okay, but not needed in this recipe which already has enough bubbly in it, to my mind, at least.

Other additives were the pumice, orange rind & annotto which I added to the warm oils.... and eo at trace.

All additives, including fragrance can be added to warm oils before adding the lye solution. The total of pumice and orange rind should equal 1 tablespoon total at most for a bit of exfoliation or it may feel too scratchy. I prefer cornmeal in gardeners soap; pumice in mechanic's soap, but the addition of dried orange peel sounds nice. Can't comment on annatto... never tried it.

 

[atiz]

Hm... I've never looked at the INS value, and some of my favorite soaps are way out of the range (INS 135, for instance). I'd be surprised if that were the problem.

 

[Saponificarian]

I actually think gelling might solve this problem for ya.