First soap recipe... Need reassurance!

[momoha]

Hello!

I am a completely newbie soap maker, but filled with enthusiasm! I will first practice with some easy soap recipes, but I’d like to soon try my own recipes. After reading for hours and hours, I came up with one recipe I’d like to try, but if any of you could give me some comments as if I’ve done my research correctly and my recipe makes sense, it’d would be amazing! Here it is:


Total weight: 578.99 g
Oils weight: 400 g
Lye: 33%
Superfat: 5 %

Water 111.62 g
Lye 54.97 g + 2.4 g (compensation for the citric acid)
Citric acid 4 g

Coconut Oil, 76 deg 15 % 60 g
Palm Kernel Oil 15 % 60 g
Shea Butter 15 % 60 g
Kokum Butter 10 % 40 g
Castor Oil 5 % 20 g
Olive Oil 15 % 60 g
Rosehip Oil 10 % 40 g
Almond Oil, sweet 10 % 60 g

At trace:
Jojoba oil 5% 20 g
Sandalwood powder 2 tsp
Kaolin clay 8 g
Aloe vera 40 g
Jasmin fragrance 12.4 g

I want to infuse the oils with dry vetiver and hibiscus. I am thinking to infuse all of the oils and butters, except coconut and palm kernel as they are highly saponifiable anyways (does it make sense?). I am adding the citric acid as we have very very hard water here.

Thanks a lot for your advise!!

 

[amd]

Are you doing CP or HP soap method?

If doing CP, the only thing I would add at trace is the Jasmine fragrance. Not trying to muddy the waters, but even that I would add with my oils unless I was separating for colors for fear of acceleration. So if you're going for a solid color bar, I wouldn't worry about adding anything at trace for CP.

As for the recipe itself without looking at the profiles in a soap calc - I think jojoba, rosehip and kokum are expensive oils and I would rather put those in lotions/balms than use in a wash off product, but for personal use do what you want. I don't think you'll get much benefit from them. I'd be more inclined to use fewer oils (I say that but my standard recipe has 6 oils, ha!) in greater percentages.

If you're expecting the infused oils to hold scent, you will be disappointed. You have a lot going on in this recipe, and I think you'll find that after making a few batches, less is usually more: Simple soaps with fewer additives, fewer ingredients are just as nice as more complicated recipes.

 

[momoha]

Are you doing CP or HP soap method?

If doing CP, the only thing I would add at trace is the Jasmine fragrance. Not trying to muddy the waters, but even that I would add with my oils unless I was separating for colors for fear of acceleration. So if you're going for a solid color bar, I wouldn't worry about adding anything at trace for CP.

As for the recipe itself without looking at the profiles in a soap calc - I think jojoba, rosehip and kokum are expensive oils and I would rather put those in lotions/balms than use in a wash off product, but for personal use do what you want. I don't think you'll get much benefit from them. I'd be more inclined to use fewer oils (I say that but my standard recipe has 6 oils, ha!) in greater percentages.

If you're expecting the infused oils to hold scent, you will be disappointed. You have a lot going on in this recipe, and I think you'll find that after making a few batches, less is usually more: Simple soaps with fewer additives, fewer ingredients are just as nice as more complicated recipes.

I will do CP! I made the recipe having in mind to try to retain as much as possible of the properties of my ingredients, and my thought of infusing with herbs was for the properties of these herbs. I thought that adding stuff at trace and prevent gel phase completely helps with that, is it just a myth?

I added jojoba because I read that, being a wax, it is not much saponifiable, and I thought that both the jojoba and the herbs that I would infuse would really retain their properties. Otherwise, I get kokum at a very cheap price, and from what I see it will help harden the soap. I agree that rosehip is expensive though... so even if I would add it at trace, it would still get saponified and properties would be lost?

 

[lsg]

Coconut oil and palm kernel oil have such similar properties that I would either use one or the other. I would also include palm oil.

 

[momoha]

Coconut oil and palm kernel oil have such similar properties that I would either use one or the other. I would also include palm oil.

The big problem is that in India we don’t have palm oil... I read that palm kernel is much less harsh than coconut, is it just a myth? My skin gets dried up so easily, I’m trying to make a soap that I’d finally have no problems with! But I get the palm kernel oil for 10 times the price of the coconut oil, so I guess it might just not be worth it, eh?

 

[amd]

I will do CP! I made the recipe having in mind to try to retain as much as possible of the properties of my ingredients, and my thought of infusing with herbs was for the properties of these herbs. I thought that adding stuff at trace and prevent gel phase completely helps with that, is it just a myth?

I added jojoba because I read that, being a wax, it is not much saponifiable, and I thought that both the jojoba and the herbs that I would infuse would really retain their properties. Otherwise, I get kokum at a very cheap price, and from what I see it will help harden the soap. I agree that rosehip is expensive though... so even if I would add it at trace, it would still get saponified and properties would be lost?

For CP, the lye is still active at trace so it will take whatever it wants to convert to soap. In the same way it will affect other additives as well. HP will give you better control over what gets eaten by the "lye monster" by adding things after the cook, but still not 100% control as there may be some lye still active. I don't think preventing gel will change what the lye will affect, just the speed at which it does it. (side note: there are benefits to gel, so the only time I try to prevent it is if it will affect the final outcome of the soap - such as my milk & honey soaps which will scorch and volcano if I don't refrigerate). Yes, the rosehip would still get saponified and you couldn't guarantee how much wouldn't get saponified. When doing CP, there isn't any reason to add extra oil at trace with the idea that one is superfatting with jojoba, or rosehip, or melted shea butter (as I've seen many soapers do on YT), it just doesn't work like that. The best thing to do is plug all the oils you want to use into a reliable soap calc, put in the desired superfat, and let the oils and lye battle it out during saponification. It will make your soapmaking so much easier - it is so frustrating to get your soap in the mold and then see your FO or "superfat oil" still sitting on the counter because you forgot it!

 

[Hawksquill]

I agree with amd that less is more, especially when you're just starting out. I'm also pretty new and I like to try simple recipes and then experiment with one or two new things, whether it's a colorant, an additive, or an EO. I think with a recipe this complex, if it doesn't turn out as expected, it will be difficult to pinpoint exactly why. You then would have wasted a lot of very expensive ingredients on a soap that didn't turn out how you wanted.

I also think you won't get the "benefits" you're thinking of from the more expensive things you're adding at trace and infusing the oils with herbs. Soap is on your skin for a few moments before it's washed off, so you're not really getting much benefit out of these ingredients, like you would with a lotion or balm that stays on your skin. My understanding from reading the forums is that soap can be made more or less cleansing, harsh, or gentle, but cannot really be "infused" with medical or topical benefits from fancy ingredients.

Re: coconut oil, I also have sensitive skin, and I try not to use it more than 10-15%. If you're looking for a gentler oil that's still pretty cheap, you could just increase your percentage of olive oil and sweet almond oil rather than investing in the PKO. If your recipe needs more hard oils, you could also add palm.

 

[DeeAnna]

Remember that the fats are going to be broken up into fatty acids during saponification. Look at fats mainly as a source of fatty acids to make the soap.

If you want to benefit from the special properties of the fats themselves, use them in products that leave the fats intact and on the skin for some time. Rosehip oil for example needs to remain intact and have plenty of time on the skin to do any good for the skin. In soap, it's going to be truly wasted as a skin care ingredient.

I think many of us go through a stage of wanting our recipes to include many different types of fats, and the more expensive the better. I have to say -- I think your recipe with 9 fats is a record! Enjoy the exploration, but bear in mind a simple and inexpensive soap can be as good for the skin as a complicated and costly soap.

***

edit: And on a science note, I want to mention that a triglyceride fat with a high saponification value (coconut or palm kernel) does not necessarily saponify more completely than a triglyceride with a lower sap value (olive, for example). The sap value is more directly correlated to the physical size of the fatty acids than the unsaponifiable content.

Coconut and palm kernel contain smaller fatty acids, so more of these fatty acids fit into a gram and each gram of these fats need more lye molecules to saponify. Olive has much bigger fatty acids. Fewer of olive's fatty acids fit into a gram and thus each gram of olive oil requires less lye to saponify.

The main exception to this basic rule is fat-like ingredients that aren't really triglycerides such as lanolin, jojoba, beeswax, etc. They consume lye but they have very few (if any) fatty acids. These ingredients will have unusually low sap values compared to the triglycerides.

 

[shunt2011]

I have to agree with the others. Soap is going to retain little to none of the benefits of your ingredients. I would save the pricer oils,butters for leave on products. I like a combination of both Coconut oil and PKO. I generally do 10% CO and 12% PKO. I don't have a problem with it being too drying. If sensitive to coconut I would do more like 5% CO and 6-7% PKO

Adding stuff at trace won't stop the lye.

 

[momoha]

As I mostly have experience with lotion and balms and using essential oils, I have the deep rooted thinking of heat destroying everything, hence the CP and freezing... But I guess I have to review my thinking, as I guess the lye is doing the job of destroying everything anyways... But you made me intrigued about HP though, I’ll do some reading about that. Having more control seems appealing.

About soap not retaining any properties, it feels strange though, as I remember as a teenager a soap my mom made for my acne problems, using comfrey and a blend of essential oils, which was actually REALLY helping my skin. I think she was doing HP and putting these things at trace. Maybe a cream would have been more efficient, but I don’t know, that soap was so good, it left me with the impression that it IS possible to make "medicated" soaps...

 

[earlene]

As I mostly have experience with lotion and balms and using essential oils, I have the deep rooted thinking of heat destroying everything, hence the CP and freezing... But I guess I have to review my thinking, as I guess the lye is doing the job of destroying everything anyways... But you made me intrigued about HP though, I’ll do some reading about that. Having more control seems appealing.

About soap not retaining any properties, it feels strange though, as I remember as a teenager a soap my mom made for my acne problems, using comfrey and a blend of essential oils, which was actually REALLY helping my skin. I think she was doing HP and putting these things at trace. Maybe a cream would have been more efficient, but I don’t know, that soap was so good, it left me with the impression that it IS possible to make "medicated" soaps...

She was probably adding those ingredients after saponification occurred, which is completely different. In HP, it is recommended to add your SF and your fragrances/essential oils after saponification is complete (aka 'the cook'), which is not the same as trace. Also it is usually recommended to add Fragrance Oils and Essential Oils, not only after the cook, but also after the batter has cooled down some right before molding.

 

[lsg]

The big problem is that in India we don’t have palm oil... I read that palm kernel is much less harsh than coconut, is it just a myth? My skin gets dried up so easily, I’m trying to make a soap that I’d finally have no problems with! But I get the palm kernel oil for 10 times the price of the coconut oil, so I guess it might just not be worth it, eh?

I woul go with coconut oil up to 20% with a higher percentage of olive oil.

 

[momoha]

Thanks a lot for your valuable replies! I will start with CP and with a much more simple recipe, without all the fuss of trace and infusions and all. I’m thinking to do this (values in soapcalc seems good...):
Palm kernel oil 15%
Coconut oil 15%
Kokum 15%
Olive oil 50%
Castor oil 5%

I guess I could save a lot by removing the palm kernel, bumping the coconut oil to 20% and putting 60% olive oil, but the numbers in soap calc become very less interesting... And with this recipe I’m still at 1$ per 100g soap bar so I don’t know if it’s much but for me it sounds fine...

Then I REALLY want to try HP Been reading about it, and seems much more what I’m looking for! Seems a bit scary though. I’m thinking maybe I’ll start my first HP test with a very small batch of this same soap and see how it goes...

 

[Dawni]

I'm jealous that you get kokum butter cheap haha

You are correct though, in wanting it to increase hardness, but most importantly, it'll help with the longevity of your soap. I think mango butter is fairly cheap there, yes? You can use either or both, and see what the numbers look like.

What does your cleansing number look like with 15% each PKO and coconut? Over several batches of soap I've noticed that anything above 16 dries me out unless I superfat high to compensate. I live in a humid country...

Speaking of numbers.. Over time you'll see that they don't always match the output. As long as you have a fairly good idea of what each fat will do for your soap, play around, experiment and have fun

Edited to add:
I HP more than I CP. Welcome to the dark side harharhar

 

[momoha]

I'm jealous that you get kokum butter cheap haha

You are correct though, in wanting it to increase hardness, but most importantly, it'll help with the longevity of your soap. I think mango butter is fairly cheap there, yes? You can use either or both, and see what the numbers look like.

What does your cleansing number look like with 15% each PKO and coconut? Over several batches of soap I've noticed that anything above 16 dries me out unless I superfat high to compensate. I live in a humid country...

Speaking of numbers.. Over time you'll see that they don't always match the output. As long as you have a fairly good idea of what each fat will do for your soap, play around, experiment and have fun

Edited to add:
I HP more than I CP. Welcome to the dark side harharhar

I get kokum cheaper than other butters, so I’ll stick to that. I get 20 as cleansing number... so I guess I should reduce de PKO and coconut a bit, and replace it by olive oil maybe? or some almond oil maybe? I was reading that kokum shouldn’t be used at more than 15% and castor 5%... no idea how valid that info is.

Do you have some good source of info on the effect on each fat? And I might as well as you... you think I could try that same recipe with HP, without changing anything? I think I read about some potential hardness problems in HP?

 

[shunt2011]

Thanks a lot for your valuable replies! I will start with CP and with a much more simple recipe, without all the fuss of trace and infusions and all. I’m thinking to do this (values in soapcalc seems good...):
Palm kernel oil 15%
Coconut oil 15%
Kokum 15%
Olive oil 50%
Castor oil 5%

I guess I could save a lot by removing the palm kernel, bumping the coconut oil to 20% and putting 60% olive oil, but the numbers in soap calc become very less interesting... And with this recipe I’m still at 1$ per 100g soap bar so I don’t know if it’s much but for me it sounds fine...

Then I REALLY want to try HP Been reading about it, and seems much more what I’m looking for! Seems a bit scary though. I’m thinking maybe I’ll start my first HP test with a very small batch of this same soap and see how it goes...

the numbers in the soap calculator don't tell the whole story. The only number I pretty much pay attention to is the cleansing #. What superfat are you using? Some would find 30% cleaning way too harsh. Also, keep in mind the more OO you use the longer the cure will be. I'm one who rarely uses OO above 20-25%. Some love it. I don't.

 

[momoha]

the numbers in the soap calculator don't tell the whole story. The only number I pretty much pay attention to is the cleansing #. What superfat are you using? Some would find 30% cleaning way too harsh. Also, keep in mind the more OO you use the longer the cure will be. I'm one who rarely uses OO above 20-25%. Some love it. I don't.

I was thinking to go with 5% superfat. What could use to replace 25% of the olive oil then?

 

[Dawni]

I get kokum cheaper than other butters, so I’ll stick to that. I get 20 as cleansing number... so I guess I should reduce de PKO and coconut a bit, and replace it by olive oil maybe? or some almond oil maybe? I was reading that kokum shouldn’t be used at more than 15% and castor 5%... no idea how valid that info is.

Do you have some good source of info on the effect on each fat? And I might as well as you... you think I could try that same recipe with HP, without changing anything? I think I read about some potential hardness problems in HP?

The only time I had issues with HP soap staying soft was when I used too much water plus a lot of soft oils in one recipe. That's why I started experimenting with reducing the water..

Generally, after a sufficient cure (I leave mine alone for 2mos minimum) most recipes will harden.

I've tried a combo of cocoa and shea up to 30%. If you're up to experimenting you can certainly try that with kokum n see how it suits you. There's quite a few people who have tried more and seem to like it. It's all about personal preference and testing.

I also rarely use more than 30% olive oil, especially if it's in combination with other high oleic oils like rice bran or sweet almond. Again, personal preference.

I went back to your first post and took some oils from there and played around with numbers that suit me. How does this look to you?

It's just an example but I suggest making small batches at a time, starting with a recipe YOU want to try, let the soap cure 4wks and see what you want to change or keep.

Edit:
I learned a lot about the properties of fats from this page, by DeeAnna, who also posted above, even if it is actually about numbers.. Another page most commonly linked to is this one, with several charts that could help or confuse you more lol

 

[momoha]

The only time I had issues with HP soap staying soft was when I used too much water plus a lot of soft oils in one recipe. That's why I started experimenting with reducing the water..

Generally, after a sufficient cure (I leave mine alone for 2mos minimum) most recipes will harden.

I've tried a combo of cocoa and shea up to 30%. If you're up to experimenting you can certainly try that with kokum n see how it suits you. There's quite a few people who have tried more and seem to like it. It's all about personal preference and testing.

I also rarely use more than 30% olive oil, especially if it's in combination with other high oleic oils like rice bran or sweet almond. Again, personal preference.

Great, thank you! Which calculator do you use? It doesn’t seem to be soapcalc. Also, in HP, which lye % do you use? I think I read that in CP around 33% is good, but HP around 27% is better...?

Yeah I want to start with small batches.. is it possible to make like only ONE soap, like a 100g batch only? Or is it not advised?

 

[Dawni]

Great, thank you! Which calculator do you use? It doesn’t seem to be soapcalc. Also, in HP, which lye % do you use? I think I read that in CP around 33% is good, but HP around 27% is better...?

Yeah I want to start with small batches.. is it possible to make like only ONE soap, like a 100g batch only? Or is it not advised?

Oh yeah I should have linked it lol. It's this forum's very own calculator! There's info on each fat there too, you can read while inputting em. I mainly pay attention only to the cleansing n longevity numbers btw.

In the link I gave you in my earlier post, there's a good read on water/lye ratio in one of the pages. I usually use 2.8:1 for HP...

Also, smallest recommended batch is about 500 grams, but unless your scale can handle decimals, and you can pour exactly that amount I guess you can try smaller. Oh, and if your HP vessel still lets you submerge your stick blender...