First Liquid Soap - pictures

[SudsyKat]

Darn it! My first liquid soap seems to be separating. I've included 2 pictures because I didn't know which one would be easier to see (one with flash and one without).

I'm not sure what the separation is. I think it's either the oil separating from the lye water or the soap solution separating from the water/xantham mixture. It's hard to say, but I'm sure someone here probably has a better idea. I am very precise when I measure, so I don't think that was the problem. However, there were definitely some things that didn't go according to plan. After an hour or more of on and off stick blending, I never could get to taffy - I barely got to a thick trace, though I think I did get that far. Could the temperature have been too low? I think for some time, I was blending without the crockpot on. I thought you were supposed to add heat after you reached trace.

I got tired of trying to get taffy and my stick blender just couldn't do any more, so I put the lid on and came back 20 minutes later to find that the soap was a translucent paste. I tested it and it was still cloudy, so I cooked the paste another hour or so (the process was about 4 hours total). It kept testing cloudy and the paste was quite cooked, so I thought perhaps I could move on. I guess I was wrong!

Anyhow, I would love to know what happened, but more importantly, I would love to know if there's anything I can do to save this?

(By the way, the layer on the top is foam (I ended up having to stick blend because I couldn't get the xantham mixture incorporated).

here's my recipe:

(41%) Olive Oil 6.175 oz (175.058 g)
(20%) Sunflower Oil 3 oz (85.049 g)
(13%) Coconut Oil 2.03 oz (57.55 g)
(20%) Castor Oil 3 oz (85.049 g)
(6%) Palm Oil 0.88 oz (24.948 g)
Total Oils: 15.085 oz (427.653 g)
Water 5.732 oz (162.508 g)
KOH – 2.888 oz (81.867 g) (3% Superfat)

By katmichaels at 2010-11-29

By katmichaels at 2010-11-29

 

[Sunny]

I am totally new at liquid soap so... I don't know if this helps at all. I did read that the "solids" will settle out of the soap after it sits for a bit. I don't know if that is what is happening here.

But there are some great liquid soapmakers here that will help you out when they find this thread! Have hope!

 

[agriffin]

I've never used xantham gum in liquid soap so I'm not sure how it does...how much to use...what happens if you use to much...etc.

If you superfated your soap you will have unsaponified oil that will layer up. But the layer your are showing seems a bit big to just be that. So maybe fats/oils and something to do with the xantham gum. I'm not sure.

ETA: I think that you not being able to get to trace after an hour is a clue. But I'm not sure what went wrong.

ETAA: But then you got paste. So it seemed to work.

I would really just start over. My only thing is I don't know about xantham gum. Hopefully someone who has used it in LS will chime in with their experience.

 

[agriffin]

I just re-read your post. If you tested cloudy then either:

1. your measurements were off and you had to much oil/fat
2. you didn't cook it long enough.

Is your KOH new? Sometimes it can absorb water and mess up your formula. So if it's been sitting around for a year...probably not good.

(I'm rambling...just trying to give you ideas of what might have gone wrong.)

 

[Lindy]

I would say you need to just let it sit.

I have never heard of using xanthum gum either. When you make LS with a superfat you are likely going to end up with a cloudy soap although I use a 1% SF because I don't want to have to neutralize it and after a couple of weeks sitting it does go clear.....

Patience is really required when you are making LS.... good luck and don't give up...

 

[SudsyKat]

I guess I did have too much oil, technically, because I had a 3 percent superfat amount. It's definitely possible that I didn't cook it long enough. I guess after about an hour and a half of seeing the translucent paste, I just felt like it wasn't going to change any more (of course, what do I know?).

I like Lindy's idea about letting it sit. I hope that works. Let's say that the problem is that I didn't cook it long enough. Is there something I can do to fix that? In the meantime, I guess I'll just let it sit.

I had a strange idea - when you have a separation issue, would it be possible to use some sort of emulsifier (wax?) to bring it together? Just curious.

Thanks!

 

[Lindy]

When my paste is done it is very translucent - I'll take a picture tomorrow of what it looks like before I take it to the next step. As long as you SB'd it for quite a while as it was forming into the taffy you're fine on the saponification and after a 3 hour cook you are definately fine. When I first mix mine up it is cloudy but as I said that disappears. I've also found that when I add my EO's to it that unless I add to it hot then they kind of "bind" and cloud it up again then sink to the bottom in a cloudy mass. But if I bring it back up to a a lukewarm temperature (about 90*F) then I don't get that.... also if I'm thinning it down to use in a foamer I reheat the soap liquid before adding more distilled water.

One other tip for you that works really well for me. When I want to dilute my paste, I cut it up into little pieces and that makes it easier to get it to dilute into the hot water....

 

[SudsyKat]

Thanks so much for all the input. I'll keep working with this batch (and I'll try some salt as well). I'll post again when I have anything interesting to report!

 

[Sunny]

I just wanted to add that I made a liquid soap with 5% superfat and nothing settled out of it after two weeks. There was a layer of bubbly stuff on top because I got too much air into the mix but I was able to scoop that off the top.

 

[SudsyKat]

UPDATE

I have a brief update, which I thought I'd post in case it helps anyone else too. I was rereading Catherine Failor's book and as I suspected, I think I did 2 things wrong.

First, I tried to get my mixture to trace (and to taffy) without having it on an active heat source. Actually, the Snowdrift Farm instructions tell you to put it in the crockpot only after you get it to taffy. Failors book suggests soaping MUCH hotter (Lye water at 140 and oils at 160). It says that this will very much affect the time it takes to trace (and it certainly did in my case - after an hour, I still did not have a stable trace (I think I did have a basic emulsion, but I can't recall exactly). By that time, I must have been at room temperature.

Second, Failor's book says that after you get to the paste stage, you need to cook it for another few hours. I thought that once I reached translucent paste, I was pretty much there. I kept cooking nonetheless, but probably just not long enough.

I feel better giving this another shot armed with this info - and I'm looking forward to AGriffin's finished tutorial as well. Thanks again!

 

[Zhuliya]

Slightly OT, but I was wondering if you can get a decent liquid soap by just melting some cured solid soap in water and alcohol/glycerine.

I do that for my washing machine soap, I mean I grate the cured castile soap (no lye discount) and melt it with water, then obtain a kind of gel that I find easier to use in the washing machine than grated soap. So I was wondering ifyou think/have tried this method with hand/body soap... I presume the results won't be as smooth and good-looking as a soap made of KOH, plus it eventually thickens and needs some more hot water every once in a while to stay liquid, but I would like to know if it works anyway.

Plus I was wondering if any of you use your handmade soap for general cleaning and most of all for the dishwasher.

Thanks a lot!

 

[SudsyKat]

Update!

Hi, all! I have an update on my liquid soap saga, in case anyone cares ;-)

The good news is, my third attempt at liquid soap worked! I realized that part of the problem the last time was that I never got to trace, no matter how long I stick blended. This time, I stick blended with the crockpot ON (to add heat) and frankly, it still wasn't quite getting there - it kept separating. My stick blender was so hot, I had to hold it with a towel and I was afraid I would blow the motor, so I decided to pull out my "real" stick blender (my Cuisinart brand stick blender). I had not realized how much better it was than my "soap" stick blender from Target. The Cuisinart kicked the soap into gear and did not overheat at all. I finally reached trace! Woohoo! I never got "taffy" as I've heard it described, but I had "thick mashed potatoes". I stirred with a spoon for the last 10 minutes or so because it was too thick for the stick blender. I think total blending time was 40 minutes or so, to get to trace. That’s crazy! I wonder if my small batch (1 pound of oils) made it harder to reach trace. In any case, I did it!!

My only problem now is that I'm having a heck of a time dissolving the soap paste. At first, I added enough boiling distilled water for a 60/40 soap to water ratio (as a start). The soap paste basically absorbed much of the water, but was still paste. Over the course of a day and half, in separate instances, I added enough boiling water to make it a 33% concentration. I felt like it was safe to do this because there was very little water in the pot and still a bunch of soap paste (I’m assuming it's just absorbing the water). In any case, I don't want to add any more water, so I think if it's not making significant progress when I get home this evening, I'll just heat up the whole mixture and insulate again, then repeat if necessary. If anyone has any tips on getting the soap to dissolve, I'll gladly listen.

By the way, this 3rd batch is Agriffin's recipe (thanks, Amanda!), using safflower oil and some others (I don't have it handy), and using a lye excess of 8%. It was fun doing the clarity test and seeing absolute, totally clarity! Success feels so much nicer than failure and I've had some of that lately!

Incidentally, that batch that's pictured above (that was attempt #2) - I ended up throwing most of it out, except for what was poured into the dispenser. What's funny is that the stuff in the dispenser never separated again. It may have turned out okay in the end. Oh, well!

Thanks to all for your help I'll post pics when I'm all done.

 

[carolyntn]

SudsyKat,
I never can get my liquid soap to dissolve very well by adding boiling water to the paste. Instead, I bring the water, in a large pot, to a rolling boil. Then I add small chunks of the paste to the boiling water. I try to keep the heat on as long as possible while I add the paste. When it starts to get too foamy I cut the heat and put a lid on the pot. I leave everything in this pot to sequester. Some globs just don't dissolve even after one week, however when I warm the soap liquid back up to add borax and essential oils, that seems to finish the dissolving process.
HTH,
Carolyn

 

[SudsyKat]

Thanks for the tip, Carolyn. Believe it or not, I'm still not quite dissolved! I stayed at a 33% solution - didn't want to go any thinner. Every evening, I checked it (not dissolved, but getting better), stirred quite a bit, reheated and insulated. I was very careful not to boil (or anywhere near boil) the paste (per AGRIFFIN'S "SHOUT" on her blog about this). It's almost all dissolved, but I seem to have a film - a thick film of soap paste on top. I tried smushing the film/chunks up with a fork this morning. I hope to go home tonight and discover my perfectly dissolved soap - we'll see!

 

[mom2tyler]

Thanks for sharing your liquid soap journey! I have been wanting to try and you've inspired me!!

 

[SudsyKat]

Well, Mom2Tyler, I'm glad my failures can inspire others! LOL

Actually, I do believe I've succeeded! My soap paste is totally dissolved. There was a thin soap film on top (invisible until you touch the top of the soap). I just skimmed it off. My soap is clear and pretty. I tested the pH and it' 9.4. I think Agriffin mentioned liking her pH between 8.7 and 9.7, so I think I'm close. Actually, i plan to use borax, but my soap is a perfect consistency right now. I'm not sure I want to thicken it (of course, I could thin it out after the fact, right)?

So what's next? Neutralize some more? Add fragrance? Add glycerin? I'm so excited, but I don't want to do anything rash right now and mess it up. I'd like to add glycerin because i have some and I hear it's a good superfatter. Do you add the fragrance now or later. Add it to warm soap or cold? What's squestering for (my soap looks pretty clear to me)? If the particles settle out of the soap after sequestering, do I have to syphon off the clear soap out of that or what? I'm so excited, I guess I'm confused! :?

 

[Eurogal]

Hi I have a similar question, I have stuff floating on the top , creamy like color ( white/cream) not sure what it is. with olive, coconut, castor and almond , with a lye excess of about 10%. which is about half way done sequestering. I'm wondering why is it floating on the top, when i read in catherine failor's book that sedements should go to the bottom...
Also my 100 % olive formula also lye excess, is done sequesting but it is not clear at all, stilll very creamy...does 100% olive ever get clear, or always stays creamy/milky but more like creamy?

 

[DragonQueenHHP]

100% OO Soap
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the paste of 100% OO LS
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