Ethics Question...is it wrong?

[Luv2Soap]

I was just going through my Facebook groups and saw this picture:

I remembered seeing this somewhere before - so I looked and sure enough, it was a design that Handmade in Florida did:

Something about this rubs me the wrong way. I mean, it's the exact same design with the exact same design elements in it. I understand that there are certain soaping techniques that are universal (e.g. swirls, etc...), but this, to me, is going beyond just mimicking a technique.

What are your thoughts about this? If someone copied your soap like this, what would you do about it?

 

[Susie]

I am sure Handmade in Florida saw it somewhere else, and thought it was beautiful. Same as the person on the FB group. It is human nature to imitate what we love. There is no way I know of to copyright something like this without great expense, and then you would spend all your time and money defending it. There was a thread not long ago about copyrighting soap...

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52560&highlight=copyright

 

[cmzaha]

In my opinion it is not wrong. One thing no one can make a soap exactly like someone else's nor can a person even duplicate a soap a second time. Almost all of us search for ideas and try to mimic. It is simply a pour and swirl technique that many of us have done. Soap is chemistry mixed with art

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It is a tricky area. It's not always clear who copied whom as the top soap could have been made by someone following a "how to" guide made by someone that copies the soap - the end soaper has no idea that it copies something else, it is just a guide online. We have the example on here of someone who had a recipe copied by a well known site, but if some soaper follows the recipe, they have no idea that they are copying someone else :/

That said, those that make the original copy are lacking ethics, imho.

 

[Dorymae]

Honestly if someone copied my soap design, like that one, I'd be beaming! We do this all the time. How do you think we learn all the swirls? Butterfly swirl is also from handmade in Florida. The drop swirl, hanger swirls, peacock swirl they are all copies.

The thing is, we can copy a design, but they will never be exact replicas- they can't, swirling is too unpredictable.

That is a very common design and I'm sure you could go on etsy and find at least 10 more just like it.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree, most of what we do has been done by someone else. Also, Handmade in Florida posts quite a bit on you tube so might even have how to do it on there. If someone want to try to copy something I made good luck to them as I can't even get the exact same design again. Close but not the same.

 

[new12soap]

The person that made that soap may very well belong to that facebook group. All the groups I am in use pictures from members that have posted their work, and it's done with permission. It's quite flattering for the soaper and usually great publicity.

The only time it is a problem is if someone steals a picture of someone else's work, posts it on their own website or page, and claims the work as their own. Then, yes, that is a BIG problem, one that many soapers have to deal with all the time.

 

[Seawolfe]

I could point out 10 differences between those two soaps - and that is just visually, I don't know the recipe or the scent. I really don't think this is something you can claim ownership of. Otherwise many many tutorials on the web have rights to my soaps.

 

[DeeAnna]

I've made a soap with the same design elements -- pebbly texture on the lower half, pencil line to divide, and a lighter layer above. I guarantee I'd never seen either of the pics you shared before I did this ... but it is very likely I'd seen a similar design on SMF or wherever.

I think anyone who shares their work in a book or on a website, YouTube, Facebook or other online resource should understand and accept that others will be inspired to recreate their designs. As other posters have said, many of the soapers who do share their design ideas are happy to see others try their techniques. At least, I have yet to see someone be really peeved about that, but I suppose there's always a first time.

That said, trash talkin' about a competitor and her products, competing in the same market with look-alike products and packaging to take advantage of a more established or successful person's reputation, copying stuff wholesale from another person's business website, stealing someone else's pictures to use on one's own business website, etc. ... all of that I do think is inappropriate. These actions show a person wants to benefit herself by deliberately injuring or taking advantage of another person's business and reputation.

 

[Cactuslily]

I can't count how many times people have asked me for a recipe of something I've made ( food, dessert), and then said, " mine didn't taste like yours." That's the thing about hand made creations, 10 people can make the same thing, using exact ingredients, and it won't come out the same. That's the beauty of artistry. That being said, my daughter has found people using her drawings and paintings online and passing them off as their own. That, is stealing. Give credit where credit is due.whats that saying about imitation being the highest form of flattery?

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, sincere imitation is one thing ... outright stealing is another!

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Personally, I think that sincere imitation is one thing but outright stealing is another...........

 

[not_ally]

Those two soaps are a little too close for comfort, at least for me. Although, as EG pointed out, it is possible - however unlikely- that HMIF was inspired by the other one. Also, maybe a "duh" statement, it is different if you sell. Sellers have a lot more time/effort/cost invested in their creations than a hobbyist like me, I can see how they might be upset if they have a "signature" design and it shows up as a c. close copy on another seller's site without an acknowledgment.

I guess I don't think of this so much as an ethical issue as one of civility - more that if (a) you do copy someone else's soap and (b) are able to replicate it so closely, you should at least acknowledge it/give thanks. Not hard to say "Props to Zahida for her inspiration" on your fb page.

 

[navigator9]

I think it would be nice to say, "I saw this incredible soap and this is my attempt at re-creating it." If you remember where you saw it, or who created it, that would be nice to mention, too. But you'd never want to say, "Hey, take a look at the swirl I invented." That, of course, would be wrong. And I think, out of respect to the originator, I'd at least try to use a different color combo, and not make an exact duplicate.

 

[Luv2Soap]

Those two soaps are a little too close for comfort, at least for me. Although, as EG pointed out, it is possible - however unlikely- that HMIF was inspired by the other one. Also, maybe a "duh" statement, it is different if you sell. Sellers have a lot more time/effort/cost invested in their creations than a hobbyist like me, I can see how they might be upset if they have a "signature" design and it shows up as a c. close copy on another seller's site without an acknowledgment.

I guess I don't think of this so much as an ethical issue as one of civility - more that if (a) you do copy someone else's soap and (b) are able to replicate it so closely, you should at least acknowledge it/give thanks. Not hard to say "Props to Zahida for her inspiration" on your fb page.

This is exactly my point - it's a little too close for comfort for me too. If you are making it for personal use? I'd say it's fine. However, if you are selling it, especially in the same marketplace (online), I am not so comfortable with it.

 

[Dorymae]

This is exactly my point - it's a little too close for comfort for me too. If you are making it for personal use? I'd say it's fine. However, if you are selling it, especially in the same marketplace (online), I am not so comfortable with it.

You will find it very very hard then to ever sell any soap. I guarantee that any pattern you think is unique has been done before- and probably with colors very close to what you use. Go looking at etsy a bit, make note of some design concepts and then go see how many are so similar that you might think the same person made them. It is very hard to find anything truly 'new' in soap design.

 

[not_ally]

"I guarantee that any pattern you think is unique has been done before- and probably with colors very close to what you use".

I agree, Dory, and a large part of that is b/c soapmakers are so generous about sharing information w/each other. See, eg, your mica line thread (thanks for that!).

It is just w/those soaps, the copy seemed like an intentional attempt to duplicate the other, and I think (though not sure) they both sell. I guess for me, it is the intention behind it. Like everyone who is learning about soaping I copy tons of stuff and am hugely grateful to those of you are willing to share, I would just hate for sellers to do less of it b/c they thought that it was counter-productive for them.

 

[Luv2Soap]

"I guarantee that any pattern you think is unique has been done before- and probably with colors very close to what you use".

I agree, Dory, and a large part of that is b/c soapmakers are so generous about sharing information w/each other. See, eg, your mica line thread (thanks for that!).

It is just w/those soaps, the copy seemed like an intentional attempt to duplicate the other, and I think (though not sure) they both sell. I guess for me, it is the intention behind it. Like everyone who is learning about soaping I copy tons of stuff and am hugely grateful to those of you are willing to share, I would just hate for sellers to do less of it b/c they thought that it was counter-productive for them.

Honestly, that's my problem with it exactly. I don't know what the intention behind it is. I really appreciate all the discussion here.

 

[not_ally]

PS, have to say that I think I *tried* to copy that exact soap, and it did not come out anything like that Both of those makers have good skills.

 

[JuneP]

Similar in feeling

I was just going through my Facebook groups and saw this picture:

I remembered seeing this somewhere before - so I looked and sure enough, it was a design that Handmade in Florida did:

Something about this rubs me the wrong way. I mean, it's the exact same design with the exact same design elements in it. I understand that there are certain soaping techniques that are universal (e.g. swirls, etc...), but this, to me, is going beyond just mimicking a technique.

What are your thoughts about this? If someone copied your soap like this, what would you do about it?

There is certainly a similarity in feeling; but I don't see these as the same, The main colors and swirl are different. Even the darker base texture is different. I see it as that soap makers take on a known design, and I don't have a problem with that. The main similarity to me is the darker base; but then a lot of soaps on the market are showing darker/different colored bases as part of a design. So, I guess it's up to the individual to decide what they find comfortable