Emulsifier Question

[AndyRoo]

Hi guys,

Obviously I know what emulsifying wax is, but the brand that I've come across here contains SLS, which isn't technically problem, but if I use the lotion I've made right after I've washed my hands and they're not quite dry, then it tends to work into a bit of a lather and I have to wash my hands again to get it off!

As such, I've been looking into alternatives. I've come across Olive derived wax which I've not used before. Is this any good?

Also, I've read about Beeswax and Candelilla wax as alternative emulsifiers, but I'm a bit confused by them. I've read that Beeswax can only be used as an emulsifier if it's mixed with borax - which I would never want to use in any kind of cosmetic product, and I'd also read that Candelilla doesn't directly act as an emulsifier either. And yet I've also read that both of them can be used as emulsifiers on their own. So I suppose my question is: which is true? Can they be used as emulsifiers in their own right or not?

Cheers,
Andy

 

[Megan]

Beeswax and Candelilla wax are not emulsifiers and will not act as such on their own.

edit: I had to do some research to find emulsifying waxes that contain SLS. Not easy for me to find actually.

A very common one (not my favorite but does the job) is just the national formulary emulsifying wax. I think the brand name is polawax, but I just get from soaper's choice as emulsifying wax NF.
You can use cationics as well, like BTMS (depending on the other ingredients in the formulation), and those are really nice for creating a conditioning substantive layer on the skin.

 

[AndyRoo]

Hi Megan,

So, the article where I saw BW/CW referred to as 'natural' emulsifiers is this one: Natural Emulsifiers for Homemade Lotions

The emulsifying wax in question is this one: Emulsifying Wax

I've looked for Polawax and BTMS-50 in the UK, but I can't seem to find it very easily... I don't know if maybe there's an alternative brandname / chemical name for these in the UK?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[Megan]

The whole idea of emulsifers is that they combine a surfactant of some sort , with a thickener. You just can't get a very good result using just a thickener.

Incroquat is a main brand of BTMS here, but again I just buy it as generic BTMS from a seller. I'm sorry to say that I'm not sure about many UK suppliers, but I did find this link with a handful of suggestions: Cosmetic Ingredient Suppliers

 

[AndyRoo]

Oh, I understand how they work. I have some stearic acid too, but I've just started exploring making lotions and creams. Until now I've really only made things like bath bombs and bubble bars and some butter based ones, this is all a bit new to me.

Thanks for the link, I'll go take a look.

 

[cmzaha]

You also cannot always get a good job with just one emulsifier. I do not know what generic BTMS is but BTMS 50 is nice for hair products especially nice for conditioner and BTMS is nice in lotions but not used alone in my opinion. Both can smell fishy with BTMS 50 the worst. To much BTMS can make your lotion feel too powdery. The issue you were mentioning with the lathering is actually referred to as "soaping". This is when a lotion turns white when you are rubbing it in. Sorry, I have forgotten the worst culprits at causing soaping.

Many times it is best to use a Co-emulsifier to help stabilization. For me, no one emulsifier has been the answer. WSP Soft and Silky is a nice emulsifier which pretty reliable with a good feel. You also need to make sure your preservative system is compatible with the ingredients in your emulsifier and your lotion. Even WSP Traditional Wax is nice added in if you want a thick creamy lotion. So it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I found it took a good year of testing to come up with reliable lotions.

 

[Saponificarian]

Hi guys,

Obviously I know what emulsifying wax is, but the brand that I've come across here contains SLS, which isn't technically problem, but if I use the lotion I've made right after I've washed my hands and they're not quite dry, then it tends to work into a bit of a lather and I have to wash my hands again to get it off!

As such, I've been looking into alternatives. I've come across Olive derived wax which I've not used before. Is this any good?

Also, I've read about Beeswax and Candelilla wax as alternative emulsifiers, but I'm a bit confused by them. I've read that Beeswax can only be used as an emulsifier if it's mixed with borax - which I would never want to use in any kind of cosmetic product, and I'd also read that Candelilla doesn't directly act as an emulsifier either. And yet I've also read that both of them can be used as emulsifiers on their own. So I suppose my question is: which is true? Can they be used as emulsifiers in their own right or not?

Cheers,
Andy

I have used the emulsifier you are currently using. You really don't need so much of it as it is a very very good emulsifier. It is actually really great in sugar scrubs. I will use it at betwee 3-4% of your total recipe.

I would add a blend of dimethicone/cyclomethicone to the mix at maybe 4-5%, maybe 50:50 of each to combat the soaping effect you are currently experiencing.

 

[AndyRoo]

You also cannot always get a good job with just one emulsifier. I do not know what generic BTMS is but BTMS 50 is nice for hair products especially nice for conditioner and BTMS is nice in lotions but not used alone in my opinion. Both can smell fishy with BTMS 50 the worst. To much BTMS can make your lotion feel too powdery. The issue you were mentioning with the lathering is actually referred to as "soaping". This is when a lotion turns white when you are rubbing it in. Sorry, I have forgotten the worst culprits at causing soaping.

Many times it is best to use a Co-emulsifier to help stabilization. For me, no one emulsifier has been the answer. WSP Soft and Silky is a nice emulsifier which pretty reliable with a good feel. You also need to make sure your preservative system is compatible with the ingredients in your emulsifier and your lotion. Even WSP Traditional Wax is nice added in if you want a thick creamy lotion. So it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I found it took a good year of testing to come up with reliable lotions.

So, when I made my lotion, I used the afore mentioned emulsifier with SLS + Cetyl Alcohol Beads. Considering it was the first time I'd made lotion, it wasn't too bad. I found myself having to water it down with some distilled water because it was too thick - but otherwise it was ok. It was purely the soaping that was the problem for me.

I have some beeswax as I was going to try making some balms / candles, but I wasn't sure whether or not it'd work. As I said, I'd read in some places that it can be used as an emulsifier, and I'd read in others that it couldn't be. So I wasn't sure what to think.

I have used the emulsifier you are currently using. You really don't need so much of it as it is a very very good emulsifier. It is actually really great in sugar scrubs. I will use it at betwee 3-4% of your total recipe.

I would add a blend of dimethicone/cyclomethicone to the mix at maybe 4-5%, maybe 50:50 of each to combat the soaping effect you are currently experiencing.

I'll have to see if I can track down the chemicals you mention. Thanks.

 

[atiz]

As Megan said, beeswax is NOT an emulsifier; it simply won't work as such. You will end up with a separated sticky mess.
(I looked at the website you cited, no idea where they get this from -- candelilla wax is not going to work either.)
I did not see the INCI ingredients of your emulsifying wax, but it sounds like it is doing the job. I often just use Polawax (or the generic version), which has worked quite well for me, esp. together with a bit of BTMS-50.

 

[AndyRoo]

As Megan said, beeswax is NOT an emulsifier; it simply won't work as such. You will end up with a separated sticky mess.
(I looked at the website you cited, no idea where they get this from -- candelilla wax is not going to work either.)
I did not see the INCI ingredients of your emulsifying wax, but it sounds like it is doing the job. I often just use Polawax (or the generic version), which has worked quite well for me, esp. together with a bit of BTMS-50.

I was quite surprised to read either was an emulsifier myself... although I'm thinking of experimenting just to see if there is a way I can actually make it work (I'm one of those curious types who just has to see if it can be done).

In the UK, I can't find anything that is specifically marketed as Polawax - or BTMS-50, but maybe I'll do some more digging around. I'm curious to try the olive derived stuff too.

 

[Saponificarian]

I was quite surprised to read either was an emulsifier myself... although I'm thinking of experimenting just to see if there is a way I can actually make it work (I'm one of those curious types who just has to see if it can be done).

In the UK, I can't find anything that is specifically marketed as Polawax - or BTMS-50, but maybe I'll do some more digging around. I'm curious to try the olive derived stuff too.

Soap Kitchen in the UK has the dimethicone and something similar to the Cyclomethicone. Here you go: Dimethicone (1000cs) - Emulsifiers, Emollients and Diluents - Soap & Toiletry Ingredients - Shop Cyclopentasiloxane

If you want to get into B&B, you will need to learn how to read INCI as different suppliers call the same product different names but the INCI will be the same.

Here is the BTMS 25 as well BTMS - The Soap Kitchen It will make a thicker lotion than the BTMS 50 but at 4% with a mix of Dimethicone/Cyclomethicone with about 75% water and the rest oils and such, should make a good lotion.

 

[cmzaha]

I like BTMS 25 much better than the BTMS 50 in lotions. It also is not quite a fishy smelling as the 50

 

[DeeAnna]

...I'm thinking of experimenting just to see if there is a way I can actually make it work (I'm one of those curious types who just has to see if it can be done).

This would be a case of reinventing the wheel, and finding the wheel you've made is quite square. Beeswax and other waxes are simply not and never will be emulsifiers by themselves, no matter what the mommy-blogger and the crunchy granola "no chemical" types want to believe.

Waxes can thicken a product, certainly, but they can't emulsify. Emulsification requires a chemical system that creates a molecular bridge between a fat and water, to put it simply. A wax does not have the two components required in an emulsifier -- a lipophilic end (the part that hooks onto the fat) and a hydrophilic end (the part that hooks onto water). It is only lipophilic.

People who claim beewax or other waxes are emulsifiers are fooling themselves. I've seen tutorials for "lotions" made with beeswax in which the formulator blithely recommends shaking the product thoroughly to re-mix if it separates. And other tutorials that recommend keeping the beewax-thickened "lotion" in the fridge so it stays cold and doesn't separate. And I've seen beeswax-thickened creams in expensive packages that are weeping droplets of water. The maker recommends ignoring any puddles that might form because "it's normal" for some separation. All these claims are roundabout ways of admitting that waxes don't emulsify.

 

[AndyRoo]

This would be a case of reinventing the wheel, and finding the wheel you've made is quite square. Beeswax and other waxes are simply not and never will be emulsifiers by themselves, no matter what the mommy-blogger and the crunchy granola "no chemical" types want to believe.

Waxes can thicken a product, certainly, but they can't emulsify. Emulsification requires a chemical system that creates a molecular bridge between a fat and water, to put it simply. A wax does not have the two components required in an emulsifier -- a lipophilic end (the part that hooks onto the fat) and a hydrophilic end (the part that hooks onto water). It is only lipophilic.

People who claim beewax or other waxes are emulsifiers are fooling themselves. I've seen tutorials for "lotions" made with beeswax in which the formulator blithely recommends shaking the product thoroughly to re-mix if it separates. And other tutorials that recommend keeping the beewax-thickened "lotion" in the fridge so it stays cold and doesn't separate. And I've seen beeswax-thickened creams in expensive packages that are weeping droplets of water. The maker recommends ignoring any puddles that might form because "it's normal" for some separation. All these claims are roundabout ways of admitting that waxes don't emulsify.

I've investigated it and it seems like it only works with borax as per the original post. I think I'll just keep my beeswax aside for something else.

Soap Kitchen in the UK has the dimethicone and something similar to the Cyclomethicone. Here you go: Dimethicone (1000cs) - Emulsifiers, Emollients and Diluents - Soap & Toiletry Ingredients - Shop Cyclopentasiloxane

If you want to get into B&B, you will need to learn how to read INCI as different suppliers call the same product different names but the INCI will be the same.

Here is the BTMS 25 as well BTMS - The Soap Kitchen It will make a thicker lotion than the BTMS 50 but at 4% with a mix of Dimethicone/Cyclomethicone with about 75% water and the rest oils and such, should make a good lotion.

Thanks. I do actually have a list of about 220 products and their INCI names that I've been compiling; I just can't remember them all off the top of my head.