Differences between different types of coconut oil

[analora]

Hi all! I live in Venezuela and here are very few suppliers of coconut oil, and they all produce almost artisan. At this moment I have a BIG problem because the same supplier sold me two different coconut oils as if they were the same. The only thing I can differentiate between them is that some one solidifies at 73º Fahrenheit (the one that works perfect) and the other at 64º Fahrenheit (the one that works terrible).

I use exactly the same formula, the same temperature and the result is that soap draws too quickly making lye capsules. To make Salt soap (with the proportion 80% coconut oil and 20% moisturizing oils such as castor and olive) is impossible, the mixture is cut almost instantly by adding the lye.

The supplier insists that the oil works perfect and that the only difference could be the quality of the raw material (copra), but that is not a big deal. I really do not believe him but, for certain reasons, he is the only provider I can have.

I suspect two things:
1. The oil that does not work well can be a mixture with mineral oil or other additive.
2. And I understand that there are different types of coconut oil, but here in my country it is not marketed in that way. Here there is only coconut oil food grade and coconut oil to make soap, nothing more.

I would like someone of you to clarify the differences in soap making between Coconut Oil 76 Deg, Coconut Oil 92 deg and Coconut Oil Fractinated to see if its possible to find an answer to my problem in those differences.

Could one of you explain to me how each of these oils works in soap making? Or if you have any idea why this oil works so terrible!!

Please, and Thanks!!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Hi Analora, My heart goes out to you for your struggle to find good soaping oils. As it happens, this topic has been discussed before. Here's a link to a thread that you might find helpful:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/92-vs-76-coconut-oil.12508/

Good luck!

ETA: I recently made liquid soap using 50/50 Coconut oil 92° and FCO (Fractionated Coconut Oil). It's pitiful!!! It has very little lather; rinses clean immediately, leaving no residue; and is drying to the point of irritation. I'm using it to clean sinks and toilets -- just to use it up. On the other hand, I love FCO in lotion, creams, balms, etc. Has a very nice feel on the skin and a long shelf life. It's easy to recognize -- clear liquid. Looks like water if water were an oil.

 

[Alfa_Lazcares]

Thats interestinf about the way the coconut oil is marketed. Here is coconut oil either refined or vigin or extra virgin but no mention of “food grade” or for “soap making”. What does it say?

I would also think it is mixed with another oil.

 

[SaltedFig]

Hi all! I live in Venezuela and here are very few suppliers of coconut oil, and they all produce almost artisan. At this moment I have a BIG problem because the same supplier sold me two different coconut oils as if they were the same. The only thing I can differentiate between them is that some one solidifies at 73º Fahrenheit (the one that works perfect) and the other at 64º Fahrenheit (the one that works terrible).

I use exactly the same formula, the same temperature and the result is that soap draws too quickly making lye capsules. To make Salt soap (with the proportion 80% coconut oil and 20% moisturizing oils such as castor and olive) is impossible, the mixture is cut almost instantly by adding the lye.

The supplier insists that the oil works perfect and that the only difference could be the quality of the raw material (copra), but that is not a big deal. I really do not believe him but, for certain reasons, he is the only provider I can have.

I suspect two things:
1. The oil that does not work well can be a mixture with mineral oil or other additive.
2. And I understand that there are different types of coconut oil, but here in my country it is not marketed in that way. Here there is only coconut oil food grade and coconut oil to make soap, nothing more.

I would like someone of you to clarify the differences in soap making between Coconut Oil 76 Deg, Coconut Oil 92 deg and Coconut Oil Fractinated to see if its possible to find an answer to my problem in those differences.

Could one of you explain to me how each of these oils works in soap making? Or if you have any idea why this oil works so terrible!!

Please, and Thanks!!

I only use Virgin Coconut Oil, so this is just from reading about how the different oils are made, but I think your supplier is telling the truth, in a sense, in that the oil is coconut, but the 64F melt point one is fractionated, with the lovely lauric acid removed using the melt point of the different fatty acids to separate them out. What you most likely have left in your second oil, that solidifies at 64F, is mostly the shorter Caprylic acid, which is an 8-carbon strain chain (saturated) fatty acid, and just a little Capric acid, which is a 10-carbon straight chain (saturated) fatty acid. The melt point is too close to just Caprylic acid to be much of a blend - Capric acid melts at 88.9F, Caprylic melts at 62.1F, so it is likely mostly Capric acid as the fatty acid in your fractionated coconut oil.

While ordinary coconut oil is pretty quick to saponify (being mostly 12-carbon chain fats), the shorter length fractionated oil is going to be really fast - like you have experienced. I would imagine that soap made from this would also be very irritating to the skin (the carbon chain length is small enough that the soap would be able to partially penetrate the outer layers of the skin and possibly cause dryness, itching and other irritations).

Coconut Oil 76F is ordinary (unmodified) coconut oil, that is composed of a mixture of fatty acids (on a glycerin backbone to make the triglyceride) predominently consisting of Lauric (12-C) and Myristic (18-C) acids, with some longer and shorter fatty acids to make up the balance.

Coconut Oil 92F is hydrogenated coconut oil, where hydrogen bonds are chemically inserted into the fatty acids to convert them from double bond (unsaturated) fats into more solid fats (saturated fats, where the fatty acid chain is straight and made up of single bonds only). This will be harder and make a less soluble soap (than plain coconut), but it would still be bubbly).

Coconut Oil fractionated is liquid, even in the refrigerator. This is the one that does not have so much of the longer fatty acids, and doesn't have much, if any , lauric acid. Fractionated coconut oil is mostly the Caprylic (C-8) and the Capric (C-10) acids. Your 64F coconut is likely to be mostly Caprylic (C-8).

Looking at all of this ... what WOULD be nice to soap with would be the other "half" of the fractionated coconut oil - all of the fatty acids the size of lauric acid (C-12) and longer. This could be manually obtained by melting ordinary coconut oil and keeping it at about 63F ... and taking off the solid parts and only soaping with those! (Ponderings ... sorry, that's not particularly helpful for you).

Bottom line - I think your second oil is fractionated coconut oil, and the short carbon chain length of the fatty acids it is made up of are causing the soap to set up much faster (and also solidify at a lower temperature) than plain coconut oil , which contains the natural range of fatty acids from the coconut fats, and melts at 72F.

 

[SaltedFig]

Hi Analora, My heart goes out to you for your struggle to find good soaping oils. As it happens, this topic has been discussed before. Here's a link to a thread that you might find helpful:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/92-vs-76-coconut-oil.12508/

Good luck!

ETA: I recently made liquid soap using 50/50 Coconut oil 92° and FCO (Fractionated Coconut Oil). It's pitiful!!! It has very little lather; rinses clean immediately, leaving no residue; and is drying to the point of irritation. I'm using it to clean sinks and toilets -- just to use it up. On the other hand, I love FCO in lotion, creams, balms, etc. Has a very nice feel on the skin and a long shelf life. It's easy to recognize -- clear liquid. Looks like water if water were an oil.

Zany, the 92F coconut would be closer to stearic in the way it doesn't make lather, and the FCO would give you the irritation ... together they are missing all the lovely bits! Not surprised that it is drying (I would think that it would be highly irritating from the FCO once that's converted to soap).

Coconut oil never ceases to amaze me, how it can be so delightful as an oil, but has the potential (depending on skin type, and "version" of oil) to be so irritating as a soap.

 

[analora]

Hi Analora, My heart goes out to you for your struggle to find good soaping oils. As it happens, this topic has been discussed before. Here's a link to a thread that you might find helpful:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/92-vs-76-coconut-oil.12508/

Good luck!

ETA: I recently made liquid soap using 50/50 Coconut oil 92° and FCO (Fractionated Coconut Oil). It's pitiful!!! It has very little lather; rinses clean immediately, leaving no residue; and is drying to the point of irritation. I'm using it to clean sinks and toilets -- just to use it up. On the other hand, I love FCO in lotion, creams, balms, etc. Has a very nice feel on the skin and a long shelf life. It's easy to recognize -- clear liquid. Looks like water if water were an oil.

Zany, Thank you very much for sending me that thread, it helps me a lot. After 5 years making soap I still have a lot to learn! Kisses!

I only use Virgin Coconut Oil, so this is just from reading about how the different oils are made, but I think your supplier is telling the truth, in a sense, in that the oil is coconut, but the 64F melt point one is fractionated, with the lovely lauric acid removed using the melt point of the different fatty acids to separate them out. What you most likely have left in your second oil, that solidifies at 64F, is mostly the shorter Caprylic acid, which is an 8-carbon strain chain (saturated) fatty acid, and just a little Capric acid, which is a 10-carbon straight chain (saturated) fatty acid. The melt point is too close to just Caprylic acid to be much of a blend - Capric acid melts at 88.9F, Caprylic melts at 62.1F, so it is likely mostly Capric acid as the fatty acid in your fractionated coconut oil.

While ordinary coconut oil is pretty quick to saponify (being mostly 12-carbon chain fats), the shorter length fractionated oil is going to be really fast - like you have experienced. I would imagine that soap made from this would also be very irritating to the skin (the carbon chain length is small enough that the soap would be able to partially penetrate the outer layers of the skin and possibly cause dryness, itching and other irritations).

Coconut Oil 76F is ordinary (unmodified) coconut oil, that is composed of a mixture of fatty acids (on a glycerin backbone to make the triglyceride) predominently consisting of Lauric (12-C) and Myristic (18-C) acids, with some longer and shorter fatty acids to make up the balance.

Coconut Oil 92F is hydrogenated coconut oil, where hydrogen bonds are chemically inserted into the fatty acids to convert them from double bond (unsaturated) fats into more solid fats (saturated fats, where the fatty acid chain is straight and made up of single bonds only). This will be harder and make a less soluble soap (than plain coconut), but it would still be bubbly).

Coconut Oil fractionated is liquid, even in the refrigerator. This is the one that does not have so much of the longer fatty acids, and doesn't have much, if any , lauric acid. Fractionated coconut oil is mostly the Caprylic (C-8) and the Capric (C-10) acids. Your 64F coconut is likely to be mostly Caprylic (C-8).

Looking at all of this ... what WOULD be nice to soap with would be the other "half" of the fractionated coconut oil - all of the fatty acids the size of lauric acid (C-12) and longer. This could be manually obtained by melting ordinary coconut oil and keeping it at about 63F ... and taking off the solid parts and only soaping with those! (Ponderings ... sorry, that's not particularly helpful for you).

Bottom line - I think your second oil is fractionated coconut oil, and the short carbon chain length of the fatty acids it is made up of are causing the soap to set up much faster (and also solidify at a lower temperature) than plain coconut oil , which contains the natural range of fatty acids from the coconut fats, and melts at 72F.

SaltedFig!!!

I am impressed by your explanation, thank you very much! It is very useful and also didactic.
I have a lot to learn yet, but thanks to your sharing your knowledge it becomes easier.
Everything seems to indicate that it is a fractionated oil as you say.

A friend told me to do a little soap test using only coconut oil, but without Super fat, using the two types of oils to have more clues (one test by each Oil) . His theory is that it contains something called SoapStock, apparently a byproduct of coconut oil refining that. In whose process an alkaline part is used. According to his theory it would be the reason why it reacts so badly to the Lye in my formula.

The strange thing is that if it were SoapStock its tendency would be to be a little more solid, but the oil that gives problems tends to stay liquid at low temperatures ...

Well ! I will do the test this afternoon and I will post pictures so you can tell me your opinion. personally I think it will be a mess…

Very grateful to you!

Thats interestinf about the way the coconut oil is marketed. Here is coconut oil either refined or vigin or extra virgin but no mention of “food grade” or for “soap making”. What does it say?

I would also think it is mixed with another oil.

Hello Alfa!!
It really does not say anything, the containers come without a label!
The manufacturer simply tells you that he has both types and nothing else. The food grade is more expensive, softer, with a very delicate smell and a very light color, almost white when solid.
The "cosmetic" or soap, is darker and does not smell very good, but its smell fades completely when saponified and there is a good quality soap.
Thank you for participating in the thread!

kisses!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Oops! My memory is so bad! I use Coconut Oil 76° from Soapers Choice which is better for soap.
https://soaperschoice.com/coconut-76coconut-76

Not their Coconut Oil 92° which is better for cosmetics
https://soaperschoice.com/coconut-92coconut-92

Here's WSP's info about FCO
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/mid-chain-triglycerides.aspx

Here's Lotion Crafter's info about FCO
https://lotioncrafter.com/products/lotioncrafter-cct-formerly-fco

Sigh. Just another thing my memory bank blanked on ... FCO is now called CCT -- Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride

Hope this helps!

 

[SaltedFig]

... FCO is now called CCT -- Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride ...

That makes sense! That way around it's much more descriptive - FCO could have been any fraction, whereas CCT is precise in description.
(Now all I have to do is memorize another initialism for another product that I don't use ).

@analora, I await your pictures!
(Pictures of some of the FCO/CCT/Soapstock ?! might be interesting to see too ).
(And ... I wonder if the SoapStock your friend is talking about as being a byproduct of coconut manufacturing is also made of the same (unwanted?) fatty acids?)