Deciding on superfat level

[CanaDawn]

What is the best way to decide on a superfat level, and what effect on the final cured soap does a higher SF create? The words "conditioning", etc don't mean much to me, and I wonder if someone can describe the effect for me instead.

 

[Seawolfe]

For me, if a soap is superfatted properly, I don't have itchy, dry skin, and I don't need to use lotion afterwards. Apparently, if a soap is too superfatted, it will not clean or lather well, is prone to becoming rancid, and may remain soft.

The amount to superfat depends on the skin of the person using it, and the oils and other ingredients used in the soap.

 

[CanaDawn]

Ok, so if it's SF ok for the soap, but too much for the user, how does it feel?

 

[Obsidian]

It can leave your skin feeling oily or filmy. For most soaps, you don't need to go over 10% SF, if your soap is still drying at that level, then the recipe needs adjusting so its no so drying.

 

[CanaDawn]

ok. Filmy would be the way I would describe how I feel with a more "conditioning" mix of oils, so that's helpful.

 

[CanaDawn]

Another spin off question: What would be the difference between a higher SF vs using a different more "conditioning" oil?

 

[LunaSkye]

I'm guessing that conditioning properties are related to how your skin looks and feels upon using a soap. A good soap will have your skin feeling soft & moisturized or nice & clean, depending on the oils used as well as the SF among other things.

Additionally, using a more conditioning oil may not necessarily lead to a more moisturizing soap as all oils have a cleansing factor once saponified (100% OO soap is said to have zero cleansing factor on soapcalc.net). That's where a higher SF comes in handy.

 

[CanaDawn]

so...I don't expect a soap to moisturize (these words are so....nebulous), but I interpret conditioning to mean "some oil remains in the soap" and "cleansing" to mean "how much oil is removed from the skin". I also assume the scales are relative, with some oil or other being given 0 on each property scale, as a means of comparison between oil options.

If I SF a highly cleansing oil, does that soap become more conditioning? Or less cleansing? If I use less cleansing oils is the soap going to be similar to a SF cleaning one? Or different in some other way (see, to me the terms mean so little they aren't very useful)

 

[IrishLass]

If I SF a highly cleansing oil, does that soap become more conditioning? Or less cleansing?

In reality/technically, less cleansing, but your skin will perceive it as being more conditioning because less oils are stripped from your skin.

If I use less cleansing oils is the soap going to be similar to a SF cleaning one?

No. The lather will be totally different in terms of bubbliness, since the most cleansing oils produce soaps with the most fluffy/bubbly lather. Even when superfatted at high amounts, a cleansing oil will still produce beaucoup bubbles. At least that has always been my experience when I superfat coconut oil at 20%, and also PKO at 20%.


IrishLass

 

[CanaDawn]

Thanks, IrishLass. That's helpful. "bubbly" is definitely a descriptor I can define, too

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

To be honest, Cana - Play! Make a soap with a certain recipe at 3, 5, 7 10% and see what it feels like. Make a soap with a high conditioning number and see how it feels.

I feel that otherwise people will be trying to explain something that is so hard to actually reference without having had the tangible experience of what these things mean - as you yourself said, the words used are so ethereal

 

[Bex1982]

That's true, trial and error will help you find the right sf for your skin.
It changes the hardness of the bar, the lather and the feel on your skin. A highly superfatted shea soap will feel different than a highly superfatted co bar. So just play and see how it turns out.
Yes, sf % determines how much unsaponified oil is left in your soap, although this is not to a T but it gives you an idea.
Also lye does not discriminate so if you use a mix of oils you will have a bit of each (or whatever it chooses to leave behind) in the superfat % (left over in your bar), even if you were to add something at trace, since after trace it's still going through the process of becoming soap (it's a common misconception that you can choose which oil will be your "sf oil"). The only way to make sure a certain oil is the "left" in the soap is to remill (fancy for rebatch), or HP.

edit to add: there are oils with unsaponifiables and so whatever the lye would not "eat" would remain in the soap. Soap calc is your new best friend!

 

[CanaDawn]

I'm actually not a total newbie soaper, so I understand about/have tried rebatching/handmilling/soapcalc/indiscriminate use of oils by lye, etc. I've been making my own soap for probably two years now.

IrishLass's comment helped me understand a bit better what the heck "conditioning" really refers to in a soap.

Shocking as it sounds, I don't actually WANT to play around a lot. I know the soap-obsessed won't understand that, but I want soap that is useful and economical. I don't want to sell, I don't want to spend a ton of time or money. I want to understand what the nebulous terms are supposed to mean, since everyone refers to them as if they understand, and yet I'm not totally sure they are as useful as I had hoped.

I have made a few different recipes, using soapcalc to decide how far from the tried and true recipe I want to go, but knowing what the terms are supposed to reference (ethereal terms aren't very useful...) means I can avoid (to some degree) spending money making bars I really don't enjoy using. I make soap simply to stock my home, so it's not as artistic as many of the soapers here. I"m not into fragranced products, and I'm totally happy with a naturally coloured bar for the most part.

(I know at this point there's quite a few people with their eyes bugged out in horror (WHAT! NOT play around with soap recipes and fancy oils and pigments??? Clearly this woman is unwell...))

Having listened to people saying over and over that coconut soap is so drying and being horrified at 100% CO soap, (or even lower percentages) etc, etc, it wasn't until someone (eta... IrishLass again ) recently pointed out that it is only drying to those who find it drying that I began to think about the relativity of all of this, and to try to understand PAST the things people say over and over. (For instance, I dislike using lotion...my preferred skin "feel" is clearly not that of people who use body lotion etc routinely, as well as conditioning soaps. Not that I like feeling dried out and itchy, either....but 100% CO soap doesn't do that to me) That's what this thread's initial question was about....what determines SF levels, and what IS the difference between a high SF and a different oil? I understand that better now.

I guess the next thing is to go from Bex1982's comment and consider how SF affects hardness (since different oils ALSO have an individual hardness number...). Obviously at some point, SF becomes self-defeating if one wants to make useful soap vs soapy oil, and apparently a fairly high oil discount is possible to do and still have nice soap, and hardness is nice but I always think of James Herriot's writing about the latherless piece of soap he was given at a farm, and his wondering about how many generations it had been handed down - there's a breaking point there too...

I was curious about the variables, individually, and as a relative thing to other "options" (SF vs more "conditioning" oil vs less "cleansing" oil), and how these terms are used in order to reflect....something. I don't want to 'try all the soaps' to understand.

Thanks for all comments.

 

[judymoody]

To be honest, once I found a recipe that worked for me, I haven't played much with oil percentages. So don't feel as though you must tinker endlessly.

Regarding superfat, you can make small 1 lb batches and see what your skin likes best. For me, I had to balance the needs of my husband (more cleansing; more oily skin) and me (more conditioning, drier skin). So I had to up the coconut oil for him but also up the superfat for me. The sweet spot turned out to be around 30% coconut oil, the balance with very shelf stable oils, and a superfat of 9-10%. In general, I can't tolerate CP soap at less than 7% SF.

Your mileage may vary. Hope this helps.

 

[Bex1982]

I'm a big fan of co here but I know others are not, because of the tendency for it to "melt" faster in the shower and be drying.
When I was not using palm oil (for abou 3 yrs) and obviously didn't want to wait ages for an oo heavy soap to harden up (and wasn't confident yet to do water discounts), I had to formulate soaps that usually had 30-40% of co, but I found a way to make it work. Im still pretty confident that I have a soap for anyone, but maybe that's me being overly confident.
That aside, I agree with you that we can't assume that what seems right to one soap maker will be right for all soap makers.

 

[CanaDawn]

I confess, I am appreciating the addition of lard in my last batch making the soap more durable

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I didn't mean to suggest that you are new to all this.

Little batches, as Judy said, are great for trying little changes without potentially wasting too much time or money.

Personally, I go for 5-7% unless I have a higher than usual cleansing, in which case I would look to up it.

 

[coffeetime]

It's very personal what oils work for your skin. I'm not bothered by 30% CO (except on my face), but I find Castile and over 50% olive oil bars quite drying, doesn't matter the superfat or the cure time. Most people are the opposite.

If you can get your hands on avocado oil, that seems to be nice to people's skin across the board. I've used up to 20%. Same with adding 5% sweet almond oil. Really makes a gentle on the skin soap that everyone seems to love.

 

[HoneyLady]

I have been struck, as well, by how subjective much of this is. What works well for me, and has been popular with some people locally was not appreciated by folks I sent samples to 1000 miles away. Their water is totally different, and the soap handled completely differently.

I use lard or tallow in many soaps, but I am experimenting with all veggie combos for one I like. Someday, I'd like to offer alternatives for those who want them. I've been experimenting with soap for my daughters' acne, too. My middle aged acne responds differently than their adolescent acne to different soaps. Find what YOU like and run with it. You can always expand later.

I've finally decided that, darn it, I'm going to wind up having to try and make some lotions, too, since I can't achieve every thing I want to do in a wash off product. :twisted:

Have fun!
~HoneyLady~

 

[LunaSkye]

@HoneyLady: you reminded me of a fact that rarely occurs to me. More rural areas to have harder water and borax is said to help the soap function in the water. If anyone knows better than me, feel free to correct me (I live in a city so that limits my experience). Good luck with your lotions (I would like to make some at some point).

@CanaDawn: have you figured out what type of soap you are going to make?