De-ionised water & EDTA questions

[not_ally]

I come across blogs setting forth parades of horribles w/r/t/ "non-natural" additives all the time because I am so OCD about research. Not to be mean, but the quality of the writing and the analysis/thought process behind most of the posts and comments is so poor that it is very hard to take them seriously, even in the occasional instance in which they are making good points.

I just kind of roll my eyes and move on. We live in a time with lots and lots of options, and lots and lots of information. I am happy to take the extremely minimal risks associated w/ EDTA, BHT, preservatives and the like in exchange for the very substantial benefits.

ETA: this is not to diss you or your post, Lion, just prompted by seeing a blog post on preservatives a little while ago.

 

[cmzaha]

Is Sodium Citrate as good as EDTA for chelating? I ask the question, even though I am not afraid of EDTA, when a customer reads a label and sees an ingredient they have heard is bad they simply will not buy the product. This is why I hate all the scare mongers on the internet. I actually had a customer ask why I use so many chemicals in my soap, now she bypassed the NaOH and the citric acid and went to the sucrose listed on my label. I had a tough time convincing her sucrose is sugar and used to help create bubbles, it was actually her husband that convinced her it was sugar. I am sure I would have lost the sale if I had EDTA listed.

 

[DeeAnna]

I haven't done the testing and research to know, Carolyn. Something someone else mentioned recently in another SMF thread made me wonder if citrate is somewhat less effective in controlling soap scum, but I can't speak with any authority about that.

Citrate in soap is arguably more "crunchy" than EDTA, so I can see why a soap maker might use citrate if only for greater customer acceptance. I suppose some customers, like the lady who was suspicious of sucrose, might have problems with citrate too, regardless of its benefits.

 

[cmzaha]

I haven't done the testing and research to know, Carolyn. Something someone else mentioned recently in another SMF thread made me wonder if citrate is somewhat less effective in controlling soap scum, but I can't speak with any authority about that.

Citrate in soap is arguably more "crunchy" than EDTA, so I can see why a soap maker might use citrate if only for greater customer acceptance. I suppose some customers, like the lady who was suspicious of sucrose, might have problems with citrate too, regardless of its benefits.

Thankyou DeeAnna. What you say about the "citrate" is true but I list what goes into the soap, so I list it as citric acid :grin:
I now sell in a large Asian population and believe me when I say they read every label on every soap they pick up. I think I will get in some EDTA so I can compare. I do know I still get some scum in the shower, but not as much as before I used the citric + extra lye

 

[Lion Of Judah]

Thank you DeeAnna for the breakdown of info , 1st. it's the reason why I personally seek you out for the straight dope on things. i do not use many of the additives out there in my soap and the target group that i plan to sell to [when i get around to it / "confident enough" ] fall into the sector that will read ingredients label and scrutinize what goes into the soap. 2nd i personally always seek out alternatives in case there is something more readily available at my disposal.
not_ally do not worry about me taking any of it as a "dis" , you all are my peers and sounding board , and more info garnered affords me the opportunity to make better choices based on info given and my comfort level. I'm striving to get a product that i like and sure a customer will love.
i still make soap the same way i learned it , plus the improvements i have made in consistency and quality. i still to this day check temperature and am a minimalist when it comes to colorants such as botanicals and herbs. and have not gotten comfortable about oxides - mica and the rest as of yet but so it go.
so in parting the "straight dope" is what i relish , i may not know all the chemistry of things but straight talk i understand its how i learn . [ Dee , a triple dose of thanks your way always]

 

[DeeAnna]

Awww. Thanks, Lion. I appreciate your straight talk too!!!! I have been worried I might have offended you by my reply. I tried to make my words as neutral as I could manage, but I'm sure it's obvious I have strong opinions and it isn't easy to write in a neutral, objective tone when I feel that way. Thanks for understanding!

I get your point about having a minimalist approach. I generally avoid using additives unless I think there's a good reason for using them. My interest in EDTA and citrate came from getting occasional spots of DOS on my soap. In looking at the problem, these isolated spots appear to be triggered by flecks of impurities -- perhaps bits of metals or whatever.

I wanted to reduce the chance of this happening, and in my studies I came across Kevin Dunn's experiments with chelators and antioxidants to reduce the color change in soap (color change being an indicator of potential DOS). I then learned about the role EDTA and citrate can play in reducing soap scum when soap is used with hard water. And so ... ta-da ... two benefits with one chemical. I'm still learning about all this, however, so I reserve the right to change my mind about these additives. So far, I do think they offer some benefits if used carefully.

ETA: I don't know of anything else that will help with soap scum, but other things I do to prevent DOS include these --

minimize exposure of my bar soaps to light -- keep them covered, keep them in a dark cabinet, etc
always keep soap covered to prevent dust from settling on them -- I use old lint-free cotton or linen towels and such
I store soap in cardboard boxes, but the boxes are lined in clean cotton towels so the soap never touches the cardboard
handle soap only with freshly washed hands
if I use water on the soap to do something like washing off soda ash, I only use distilled
minimize the use of metal utensils when soaping -- silicone spatulas are my friend, although my SB is stainless steel
use distilled water as much as possible when making (that's not always possible, but I try)
minimize superfat in my recipes (yeah, I know -- controversial!)
package soap in shrink bags as soon as the soap is cured, again to prevent contamination from dust, dirty fingers, etc.

 

[jules92207]

I have been very interested in this topic for some time now and I too appreciate all the straight talk discussion. Huge kudos to DeeAnna for always making me want to learn more and understand deeper what does what and why.

Also huge kudos to everyone with good questions and thoughts to help facilitate discussion. I learn more here than anywhere, I tell ya.

I also have Kevin Dunn's book on my amazon wish list now. Thank you!

 

[Saponista]

I also love your answers DeeAnna. Thank you for always being so helpful and informative. I wish there were more voices like yours to counteract the sea of misinformed detrimental nonsense that seems to prevail over actual facts. I would like to sell my soap at some point and there are several ingredients that I would like to use but know they will have a negative impact on sales due to internet based negativity. Titanium dioxide being one of them.