Crumbly soap - using vinegar (CP)

[beardguy]

I've done 3 batches using vinegar as part of my liquid to produce sodium acetate (1% oil weight) in order to make the bars harder and improve lather, but all three of them are crumbly when I'm cutting them. Some bars even fractured in two.

All of the recipes had a high percentage of hard oils (lard and coconut) in the 60 to 85 % range. I soap at around 110 to 120F. I used EDTA at 0.5% oil weight in all of the recipes.

Two of the recipes I cut into at 24 hours and the other at 48 hours.

I CPOP in the oven (I turn the oven to 170F, shut it off and then put the soap in there for the night).

I like that the bars become very hard fast, but they also become very brittle. Would using sodium lactacte be more advised ?

 

[Saponomancer]

You're probably cutting them way too late! When I use vinegar my bars are ready at the six hour mark.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree, you are waiting way too long to cut. I generally cut anywhere from 3 (salt bars)-12 hours (standard bar). Exception is when there is high liquid oils then it may take a bit longer.

 

[DeeAnna]

Cut them sooner. Use a kitchen "bench scraper" or a wire cutter (like a cheese cutter). A knife won't work nearly as well for brittle soap. A blade is triangular shaped and the wedging action of the blade will cause the bottom part of the soap to break rather than be cut.

For the batches you've already made if they're not cut already, try warming the soap in the oven (150-170 F for maybe an hour) and cutting while warm -- that may help.

Sodium lactate and sodium acetate are both salts. They both do somewhat the same thing, but try 'em both and see what works best for you. I personally don't use either one and get nicely firm soap, so I don't think either additive is strictly necessary. But diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

I want to play devil's advocate here -- why are you getting excited about soap that is brittle? I shoot for soap that hits a middle ground -- sufficiently firm enough to cut within 12-18 hours after making, but ductile enough that it cuts nicely and is easy to plane the flat surfaces smooth and bevel the corners cleanly. The few batches I've made that are brittle have taught me that brittle soap is almost as much of a pain to deal with as overly soft soap. And I'm not any more impressed with it in the shower as the soap I more typically make. So .... ?

 

[Steve85569]

^^^ All of this.
High lard soap generally does not need SA.
I use vinegar ( sodium acetate) in bars with a low hardness factor, a low lasting value or ( usually) both.
I have also had soap that I waited just a little too long to cut and it really didn't cut as much as come apart.

Timing is everything especially when using additives.

 

[beardguy]

So far in soap making, when to cut (or not to cut) soap has been the biggest challenge.

I started using vinegar because I had a few recipes that even with a lot of hard oils and a steep water discount, still had drag marks after cutting even after 48 hours of waiting. One such soap had 80% lard and 45% lye concentration, and I still had to wait three whole days to cut. I'm starting to think that not gelling the soap was the problem and that forcing gel plus using vinegar is just too much for the amount of lard/co I'm using.

I will go back to the drawing board and stop using vinegar and just continue forcing gel to see if I get the desired results. I'm not excited about the brittleness of the soap, but I do like that the soap is hard, firm and easy to unmold without breaking the corners.

Thanks everyone for their responses.

 

[DeeAnna]

That's fair enough -- I appreciate your point of view. My soap batches almost always get quite warm enough to reach gel temps, and I'm sure that helps. I usually use over 50% lard with a titch of coconut oil, so my recipes are probably fairly similar to yours.

As far as drag marks -- what do you mean by that? What are you using to cut your soap? Pic?

 

[beardguy]

When I say drag marks, I mean marks left on the soap from soap bits sticking to the blade during the cut, leaving a rough texture.

 

[Obsidian]

I use high lard and my bars are plenty hard but if they don't gel, they can stay soft for a few days.
I switched to a wire cutter and I don't have any issues cutting the softer soap.

 

[beardguy]

Obsidian, that's my experience too. Lard produces a very hard bar, but it can take up to a week not to feel spongy.

 

[earlene]

Beardguy, I saw your post about this soap in the April challenge thread, too. I tried to respond, but was on my phone and it just doesn't cooperate well with posting to this forum. So tonight on my computer, I can respond with some experience I have had using vinegar and running into some of these crumbling issues.

What I suspect is the case, as mentioned above is waiting too long to cut because that is what I found out in my experiments with vinegar in soap. But ALSO, you may also have used too much vinegar as well. I have also had vinegar soap (I'm using this term to differentiate soap wherein vinegar is an ingredient) crumble when I wait too long to cut. But I have also had it happen when using too much vinegar.

So I would suggest that next time try half as much vinegar as you used this last time. For example, if you used 50% vinegar and 50% beer, try using only 25% vinegar for the next batch. And still cut early, because it works better when you do.

BTW, the soap is still usable even though it may be shaped like various oddly shaped rocks. But it may also splinter if you drop one of them on a hard surface. You can successfully re-batch the soap if you so desire. I have also done that with soap where it was too brittle (from too much vinegar). It was interesting to see it cut into tiny little shavings with almost no effort. When I rebatch, I prefer to use a mixture of new soap batter and add in the old soap at about a 50-50 mix. That works well with this kind of brittle soap.

Regarding using vinegar with lard, I have done that and it was the most brittle soap of any of the vinegar-added soaps. I found that decreasing the amount of vinegar to a tiny amount (even less than 25% of the liquid) works, but I don't really think it's necessary at all to make a harder soap. But I encourage you to do your own experimentation to find what works best for you in your circumstances.

 

[Soapmaker145]

I do what earlene suggested. Since the vinegar is just to increase the hardness of the soap, I only add as much as I need to make the soap hard. I still have to cut earlier than if vinegar wasn't an additive. My suggestion is to titer the vinegar down to figure out how little you need to add to your mix to allow you to cut the soaps clean when you want to.

 

[DeeAnna]

Obsidian, that's my experience too. Lard produces a very hard bar, but it can take up to a week not to feel spongy.

If you make a soap that doesn't gel and feels overly soft, powdery, or spongy, do a "CPOP after the fact" to see if an hour or 2 of gentle heat (150-170 F) can help matters. I have an article about this on my Soapy Stuff page -- click the link at the bottom of this post.