creaminess and conditioning numbers

[Nite Hawk]

Was tinkering with soap calc on potential milk recipes, and the number on conditioning was 50, and creaminess was 31.
Have heard that when your creaminess is too high, the bar feels slimy, is this number 31 too high on the creaminess scale, and 50 too low on the conditioning scale?
How do they inter -relate to one another?

 

[lsg]

I think the conditioning number is the soap's emollient content and the creaminess is the creamy suds value. I don't know if I am explaining this well, so here is a link explaining the vaules for SoapCalc. I would be concerned with the conditioning value versus the cleansing value. I always aim for good bubbly and creamy lather along with a high conditioning value.

http://www.soapcalc.net/info/SoapQualities.asp

 

[Nite Hawk]

Thanks for the reply.
so you think 50 is too low for conditioning? What would you consider the basic number for conditioning, personally?
It seems that some factors are "antagonistic" meaning when the soap hardness goes up, it seems the conditioning / creaminess / lather seem to go down, especially when I am working with basic oils--
OO, Coco, PKO, Lard, castor, and hopefully soon whole milk.
Some people suggest adding sugar or salt to up either lather or hardness, but that doesn't address conditioning...
Any thoughts on this?

 

[DeeAnna]

The short answer is, yes, you are right.

Soap "hardness" is the % of saturated fatty acids in the soap -- myristic, lauric, palmitic, and stearic. Soap "cleansing" and "bubbly lather" is a subset of the "hardness" fatty acids -- this is the % of the shortest-chain saturated fatty acids -- myristic and lauric.

The "conditioning" number is the % of unsaturated fatty acids -- oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, and linolenic.

The "creamy" number is a blend of both saturated and unsaturated. It is the % of mid-length fatty acids -- riconoleic, oleic, and palmitic.

So, yeah, if you take away from "hardness" to add to "conditioning" or vice versa, you are making a direct tradeoff of one for the other.

It is far more important to me to get the conditioning and cleansing numbers within a good range. For a "normal" all-purpose bar, I personally like to see the upper 50s to low 60s for conditioning and the lower teens for cleansing. But YMMV.

I don't put a lot of weight on the hardness value -- that label is kind of a misnomer, actually, because it really is a measure of bar firmness right after saponification, not a measure of long-term bar hardness or bar longevity.

Everyone's perception will vary about what they want for lather. One woman's "slimy" might be another woman's "creamy". After doing some testing with several of my soaps made with a range of recipes, I personally prefer a soap that makes a rich creamy lather with an overlay of light fluffy bubbles. All fluff or all cream ... not so good. You might like something quite different; it is such a personal preference.

Long term hardness and a boost to bubbly lather mostly come (for me) from using a modest amount of coconut oil, a bit of honey or sugar, a 33% lye solution for most recipes, and enough patience to let the soap cure.

 

[Nite Hawk]

Isn't that a pretty high lye numbers? and why would having high lye numbers make a harder bar?
Isn't there a risk of "hot" soap with the extra lye?
I have heard that SALT not sugar makes a harder bar and sugar increases the lather. which is correct?
I am guessing that the sugar would be dissolved with the water portion of the recipe, and also how would you figure out how much sugar to add? Another question is, doesn't the soap itself chemically change and have a salt component after sapofinication, so the addition of salt might not do much??
I know this newbie has lots of questions, but I figure talking to people who have actually made soap instead of just reading about it, is the better way to go....
thanks.

 

[pamielynn]

I also use a 33% lye solution. Works great for me - I've never had a hot soap. Salt can make a bar harder when you're using a high concentration of it - like in a salt-bar (spa bar). For me personally, just using a few tsp never did anything. Sugar added to the lye water does seem to boost the big bubbles a bit. I use 1 tsp per pound of oils. To firm up your bars a bit, you can try adding sodium lactate to your lye water. This site: https://www.thesage.com/calcs/lyecalc2.php can help you figure the SL amounts. But sodium lactate CAN heat your soap during sap (not that big of a deal if you're HPing)

As for soapcalc numbers, I try to keep my hardness above 40 and my conditioning over 55 with a 6% lye discount. I also prefer my bubbles over 25 and my iodine under 60 (60 is definitely top end for me). And don't make yourself mad over those soapcalc numbers, although i still find myself doing it on occassion. Try for a balanced recipe and try it out - you may love a recipe that is a 10 on bubbles and a 52 on conditioning, depending on ingredients - or whatever numbers. You just don't want say an 81 on conditioning and and 25 on hardness - you could head into DOS territory - IMHO.

Personal experimentation is truly the best way to find out what you like

 

[dagmar88]

Isn't that a pretty high lye numbers? and why would having high lye numbers make a harder bar?
Isn't there a risk of "hot" soap with the extra lye?

There is no extra lye; this is the concentration of lye in the solution and doesn't say anything about the quantity used.
Just another way to do a water discount.

 

[Nite Hawk]

The difficulty that I am having with the Soap calc numbers is tweaking the numbers,- as when I get the hardness around 40, the conditioning drops dramatically. Was tinkering with looking at a milk soap, and I managed to get the hardness around 40, the cleansing around 19, but couldn't get the conditioning over 50 withoug upsetting the other 2 numbers.... :x
The Creamy was quite a bit higher than the bubbly, also, no matter what I tried.
Was using numbers with OO--Coco--PKO--and Castor. Even tried jiggling with beef tallow to see if it changed anything, still had the problems of "antagonistic" numbers with the different oils..
Not sure if I could throw a different oil to change things or not...
Definately annoying!!

 

[lsg]

You might try adding salt to your liquid and stirring to dissolve before adding the lye. This helps the moisture evaporate more rapidly as the soap is curing, thus giving you a harder bar in less curing time.

 

[dagmar88]

The difficulty that I am having with the Soap calc numbers is tweaking the numbers,- as when I get the hardness around 40, the conditioning drops dramatically. Was tinkering with looking at a milk soap, and I managed to get the hardness around 40, the cleansing around 19, but couldn't get the conditioning over 50 withoug upsetting the other 2 numbers.... :x
The Creamy was quite a bit higher than the bubbly, also, no matter what I tried.
Was using numbers with OO--Coco--PKO--and Castor. Even tried jiggling with beef tallow to see if it changed anything, still had the problems of "antagonistic" numbers with the different oils..
Not sure if I could throw a different oil to change things or not...
Definately annoying!!

That's what soapmaking is about; coming up with your own unique and well balanced recipe. Not everything is in the numbers, so trying to single out and dissect every property isn't going to get you anywhere.
As said before, coconut and palm kernel are pretty much interchangeable.
I see no use in combining the two.

 

[Hazel]

I don't put a lot of weight on the hardness value -- that label is kind of a misnomer, actually, because it really is a measure of bar firmness right after saponification, not a measure of long-term bar hardness or bar longevity..

My understanding of the hardness value was that it is related to the solubility of the soap. The lower the hardness value, the faster it dissolves with use as compared to a bar with a higher hardness value. Of course, this does relate to using a higher percentage of saturated oils and to initial hardness after saponification. The soap I make with a higher percentage of saturated oils are harder after saponification and last longer in the shower as compared to soap I make with a higher percentage of unsaturated oils. I do agree no matter what the hardness value, most oils will "harden" enough to have some firmness. However, a large percentage of unsaturated oils can produce a bar which is a tad bit on the soft side. Firm enough to pick up but you can make a dent in it if you press it with a finger even after a 6 month cure. Ask me how I know. :roll:

 

[Nite Hawk]

So the best combination for a good bar that won't melt right away in the shower would be one that is a combination of both animal products and vegetable oils?
Dagmarr, with PKO and COCO it seems when tinkering with a soap calulator that the difference might be that COCO according to the numbers, seems to be a tiny bit softer than PKO, or at least that is what it appears. Is PKO as drying as COCO can be? Is there any kind of general thought which makes the best soap,-PKO or COCO ?
It also seems that lard is a tiny bit softer than Beef tallow, Any thoughts out there?
thanks..

 

[DeeAnna]

"...My understanding of the hardness value was that it is related to the solubility of the soap. The lower the hardness value, the faster it dissolves with use as compared to a bar with a higher hardness value...."

The "hardness number" relates to the initial hardness of the soap. This number tells you if the soap made with a particular blend of fats will be easier to unmold and cut or more difficult. The saturated fatty acids -- myristic, lauric, palmitic, and stearic -- create soaps that are harder initially. The soaps made with monosaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids -- oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, and linolenic -- make soaps that are softer initially. Obviously other additives will affect the hardness too, but the "hardness number" only looks at the fats in the recipe, not the other additives.

The "hard" soaps made from saturated fatty acids are actually more soluble in water, however, than "soft" soaps made from monosaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. This is opposite from what you are thinking.

The soaps that have the shortest straight carbon chain -- myristic and lauric -- are the most water soluble. Soaps with a longer straight carbon chain -- palmic and stearic -- are less water soluble. The longer chain monosaturated and polyunsaturated soaps are even less soluble. (Soap made from ricinoleic acid (castor oil) is a bit of an exception.)

The amount of lather a particular soap makes is a rough measure of its solubility. For example, coconut oil soap lathers better than olive oil soap, all other things being equal.

 

[Jakeedin]

You know folks. I am a new bod in soap-making. I too had my fair share of frustration with the soapcalc numbers. In the end, I found that there was no short cut in soap-making. The only way to understand what all these experienced soapers are talking about was to follow them by actually making the soap to fully appreciate what they are saying.
Some say hardness matters whilst others say conditioning matters whilst some others will come up with cleaning numbers. In the end, I did them all, to find out what is what and WHY? I know I am a newbie in soap-making and my core message for all newbies is to "boldly go" and experiment. It is fun and excitingly scary at times. But one step at a time and follow those experience soapers rather than reading. Remember, there is no short cut other than trial and error. The most important things is LYE safety. That must be adhered to. The rest work it out.
The most frustrating thing of all by, the time you get you cleaniness numbers the conditioning drops. Then Vice versa. One of my batches was loaded with Palm kernal, Coconut and all the hard stuff thinking yeah that will be HARD long lasting etc. When it came to unmould 12th hour. It was firm but soft as well. Left for 18th hour it was getting better. But the overal quality turned to be a STRIPPER. It was in its twenties. I thought it was a good cleaning bar until I read that a good soap bar should be around 15,16 or 17. Don't know what the conditioning number is, someone here indicated 50-60 that is my next test. I don't care whether I get it right or not. So long's as i learned something out of it because of my experiment.
So, here is what I have learned so far in the past 4 weeks.
PMS (nothing to do with menstrual stress), Palmetic, Myristic and Stearic = Gives you an indicator of hardness. By adding the value of Lauric will give you Hardness Value on the SoapCalc. However, I treat Lauric seperately as it kinda gives me a STRIPPER indicator. I high PMS will give you dryness, though firm unmoulding but, I can wait. One soaper on this forum wrote, patience is important. So, I'll wait. Even if I keep looking at the thing every hour (dont know why, I just do).
ROLL- Rincinoleic, Oleic, Linoleic & Linolenic these add up together gives you the Conditioning Value on the Soapcalc.
These are all my indicators:
Rincinoleic indicates the fluffiness and luxurious lather
Oleic indicates as to whether I should be careful of sliminess or conditioning. But it is my indicator as i learned from a soaper on this forum, one woman's slime could be another's creaminess. yesterday, I produced one with an Olieic value above 51 not sure is it good or bad. But I am gonna find out.
Linoleic is my DOS indicator
Linolenic is my good indicator. I have no idea what it is
My next step is to find out my comfortable and acceptable numbers. Then set them as my benchmarks.
This is what I have learned. I don't know what I am typing now. So, I'll shut up and let the experienced soapers take a bite on me. But all I just want to show to new soapers is to follow the experienced soapers, experiment and post so that others can guide us rather than reading.
Ok I'll shut up now.

 

[Hazel]

"The "hardness number" relates to the initial hardness of the soap. This number tells you if the soap made with a particular blend of fats will be easier to unmold and cut or more difficult. . Obviously other additives will affect the hardness too, but the "hardness number" only looks at the fats in the recipe, not the other additives.

The "hard" soaps made from saturated fatty acids are actually more soluble in water, however, than "soft" soaps made from monosaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. This is opposite from what you are thinking.

The soaps that have the shortest straight carbon chain -- myristic and lauric -- are the most water soluble. Soaps with a longer straight carbon chain -- palmic and stearic -- are less water soluble. The longer chain monosaturated and polyunsaturated soaps are even less soluble. (Soap made from ricinoleic acid (castor oil) is a bit of an exception.)

I wasn't basing my answer on the inclusion of additives. I was going by just oils and nothing else. Thank you for the informative post and tactfully pointing out that my answer is wrong. I'll have to reevaluate and check my recipes. If castor is the exception, I'll have to lower the percentage, increase the saturated oils and see what occurs. It will be a good experiment to compare them.

@ jakeedin -

Great post! I like the acronyms. I admit I'm one of those people that goes by conditioning value (not so fond of olive so castor fan).

 

[DeeAnna]

Hey, Hazel, it's not your fault for thinking the "hardness number" is a measure of solubility. I had to do quite a bit of reading, researching, and head scratching before I got it straight. It seems contrary to common sense that the "softer" soaps are less water soluble, but that is basically the case.

A really rough analogy would be dissolving a sugar cube in water versus dissolving a caramel in water. The sugar cube is harder, but its crystalline structure breaks down easily in the water. The caramel is gooey and soft, but it dissolves slowly due to its tangled, non-crystalline nature.

Probably the best single resource for this kind of information is Kevin Dunn's book "Scientific Soapmaking". In the "Fatty Acids" chapter, Dunn explains how the different fatty acids affect the water solubility of soap. He indirectly shows the effect of fatty acids on the physical hardness of soap in one of his studies at the back of the book. The meaning of "the numbers" (hardness, cleansing, etc.) was not the focus of his book, so I'm not surprised to have to piece together the info.

I wish I could erase those darn labels (hardness, cleansing, etc.) that have been put on "the numbers". Instead of enlightening and educating soapers about what "the numbers" really mean, I think these labels confuse and mislead.

It has been fun to discuss this ... thank you for the conversation!

 

[judymoody]

I think that soapcalc gives you a starting point but you shouldn't let it take over to the point where it makes you (I mean the general you, not you in particular) overly anxious. It should be one tool of many in your soapmaking tool box.

It doesn't take into account things like superfat or how additives like salt, sugars, milks, beer, etc. affect your soap.

The best method (at least for me) is personal experience and that takes time. So for example, early on in my soapmaking journey, I compared PKO, CO, and Babassu to see which I liked the best. I used a control recipe swapping out only the test oils (at 25 or 30% can't remember which). I didn't see a whole lot of difference in CP soap so I concluded that I didn't need to spend extra on babassu for CP. But I love it in lip balm.

According to the numbers, upping castor boosts both lather and conditioning, but beyond a certain %, I found that my soap felt sticky. Soapcalc didn't tell me anything about that.

I found that for my skin, a high conditioning number was the most important quality. Soap calc pointed me in the right direction with respect to how to balance conditioning with lather quality and quantity. But in the end, changing the superfat made the biggest difference and that I learned through trial and error.

I think I've made my point. Don't let the numbers freak you out.

 

[Hazel]

DeeAnna,

I appreciate the clarification and I'm sure everyone else does, too. This has been helpful because now I've decided to go back to a recipe and play a bit with it. I want to change the castor percentage at varied increments to see how it affects how long it takes different bars to dissolve. The highest percentage I've ever used for castor is 15% (might have been higher - I'll have to check). I used this in a bar which I had used a higher than normal percentage of palm oil. It's a long story - encouragement from another soaper to be experimental and mix up my usual percentages, etc, etc. It was an odd recipe but one of my sisters said she liked the soap.

I'm not the one to thank for the conversation. Nite Hawk started it.

@ judymoody -

I'm sure you've mentioned it before but what was the castor percentage you used that made your soap sticky? I haven't experienced stickiness from castor. At least, I don't think I have. I did have a high conditioning bar which was sticky for awhile afterwards but I assumed it was from the high percentage of olive and sunflower since I only used 5% castor in it.

 

[Barbara AL]

coconut Oil and Palm kernel are both cleansing keep them both together under 30% of your total recipe and up your olive oil.

 

[Nite Hawk]

"according to the numbers" which I am hearing one shouldn't have too much faith in, alot of OO results in a very soft soap unless left for a long long time??
In my very limited experiance, it seems that I am liking the PKO more than the COCO as it seems less harsh (even though it is still cleansing )than the COCO, and still adds a firmness to the bar. Any thoughts on that??
So even though "the numbers" suggest that adding a small amount of lard firms up the bar, it seems that according to what I am hearing as a saturated bar it isn't adding a firmness after all, amd maybe should be scrapped??
Thanks for all the feedback. interesting...