Cream Soap - Newbie Questions

[Stacy]

Hi folks,

I must apologize for the hit and run posting that I do, I do read and lurk, I just don't answer a lot because 1. I don't feel I have the experience to lend anything valuable yet and 2. there are already so many knowledgeable people here, if I do know something, someone always beats me to it!

I've been going nuts creating lots of different things (I get a little obsessive when I get into something new), I've made scrubs and lotions, body butters, not to mention many many batches of CP.

There has been many a night when my brain is just too full of soapy type knowledge. One night I had a dream where my mother was making CP in the kitchen sink for dinner, of course I was upset about this as she hadn't consulted me about it. So yeah...might need some downtime.

But right now I have decided to try cream soap! I've read a lot of opinions that cream soaps are well..creamier so I thought I'd like to try that over regular LS.

edit: Cream soap is not what I want so lets stick to liquid soap for these questions.

I like to know not just how to do something but why I'm doing it. I've done some searching, but haven't found the answers for specific questions I need, plus I like to confirm that I understood something correctly, so I'm hoping someone can help out. It you have any links to learn more about the process, please share! As I said I've done some searching, but google is a big place. :Kitten Love:

So onto the good stuff...

When making liquid soap you are making a HP type soap so all the lye is cooked out. This means that the product is safe to use immediately (or at least with minimal aging in which the soap may improve).

Neutralizing is not necessary if you're using a lye calculator that accounts for a 90% pure KOH and minor superfat amount (1%-2%). You see a lot of this online because it was an older technique. (I got that from on here somewhere!)

The big question is diluting. I watched the Soaping101 Tutorial where she dilutes the finished soap 3:1 by weight, but she also mentions that because it's an OO based soap the dilution is higher than a CO soap. Do you always dilute 3:1 and the weight varies by the density of the oils or is there a scale? Is there an accurate resource where I can learn more about his?

Once again, many thanks for all the knowledge you wonderful people share!

Edits for clarity and anyone searching in the future. My original post was rolling two products into one, Cream and Liquid soap are very different animals. I'm was going to try to clean up this thread but it's just too darned confusing so I'm starting over with a thread on just Liquid Soap at www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=463527

 

[Meganmischke]

Are you making cream soap or liquid? As far as I know there is no diluting of cream soap. I just made my first batch of cream soap last week. I can tell you exactly what i did if that's helpful.

 

[shunt2011]

I agree, there is no diluting with cream soap but you do so with liquid soap.

 

[cmzaha]

Some water can be added into the cream soap after the rot time. FYI cream soap needs to be preserved if you add in water to get it to the consistency you like. Lordy I hate cream soap...!! does make a great salt scrub though. Catherine Failor has a good little booklet "Making Cream Soap" if you can find it. I believe it is out of print but sometimes can be found on Amazon. There is also a very good Cream Soap Yahoo Group that has a lot of good tutorials.

 

[Seawolfe]

I just realized that Im not even sure what defines a cream soap. Is it just a thicker opaque liquid soap?

 

[Stacy]

See this is why I ask! I didn't know that about no diluting the cream vs liquid soap.

By definition (anyone correct me if I'm wrong) cream soap is a Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide mix whereas you just use Potassium Hydroxide for Liquid Soap.

Well this should be interesting, I didn't realize the two were so different. Now I'm going to have to make both and compare *sigh* :wink:

 

[Meganmischke]

When i think of cream soap i think of soap made with mostly koh and a small amount of naoh. There is a large percentage of stearic acid and additional glycerin or other solvents added durring the cook. It can contain a supercream and or turkey red oil for skin softening. It is whipped. This is just my definition. Liquid soap is liquid whether it is opaque or clear.

 

[Stacy]

A tutorial I've found in case anyone wants to join me in my very experimental and apparently uninformed journey
http://creationsfromeden.blogspot.ca/2009/06/cream-soap-recipe.html

Edit: Yeah I think I'll be shelving this for a bit and sticking to liquid soap..as fun as it looks, I'm thinking it's a little advanced and finicky.

Anyone who tries it though I'd love to hear about your experience.

Thanks for the answers so far guys, I will look at those resources when I'm ready to tackle cream soap for real. Hopefully I'm a little clearer on all this now :/ This thread is a train wreck so I'm starting over now that i understand what I want to do a little better. If anyone still wants to help me out, head over here for the proper (I hope) thread -> www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=463527

 

[Lindy]

Cream soap is usually 1:4 NaOH : KOH although I have seen one that was 1:2.5 and have made it. It was a really creamy soap. You don't usually "whip" a cream soap as it will flatten back out as it doesn't hold air the way a true Whipped Soap does. It is beaten though. It takes about 6 months to really start getting nice and then it has this gorgeous pearly sheen to it. It also makes an amazing shaving soap.

You do use a large amount of Stearic Acid as well as glycerin with it and I do recommend a decent superfat as I find it slightly drying, but that could just be me.

 

[DeeAnna]

I am gradually coming to the conclusion that bar soap ... cream soap ... and liquid soap are not all that different, really. I'm writing this quickly -- I'm playing hooky but need to get back to work -- so I hope this make sense:

Bar soap is USUALLY 100% NaOH, but can be made with a low % of KOH (around 5% to 10%, speaking from memory).
Cream soap is USUALLY a mix of KOH and NaOH (15% to 25%).
Liquid soap is USUALLY 100% KOH, but can be made with some NaOH (10% to 40%).

Bar soap typically has a relatively low water content.
Cream soap has a somewhat higher water content than bar soap, so it can be whipped into a creamy consistency.
Diluted LS has a high water content so it is a thick but pourable liquid or is thin and watery enough to be used in "foamer" bottles.
Note: Cream soap and undiluted LS paste may have a roughly similar water content.

Bar soap often is made from a blend of all three types of fats -- brittle fats (coconut, PKO), firm fats (palm, tallow, lard), and liquid oils (olive, sunflower).
Cream soap can have a blend of all three types of fats, but it is usually formulated with large % of firm fat and/or pure stearic acid. What is unusual about cream soap is the high % of stearic acid.
Liquid soap may have a blend of all three types of fats, but it is usually formulated with brittle fats and liquid oils. Not using "firm" fats tends to keep the % of stearic and palmitic acids low so the soap is transparent. If you don't care about transparency, try using the same blend of fats from your favorite bar soap recipe.

Bar soap can have a higher superfat than LS, because too much fat in LS will simply float to the top of the soap. The recent trend in LS making is to use 1% to 3% superfat. The cream soap recipes I've looked at typically have a superfat % similar to bar soap.

All can be made hot process or cold process, although there are some "traditional" differences (LS is often HP'ed, for example).
All tend to benefit from a cure period. All tend to become milder and may lather better with time.
During the cure: Bar soap cures to lose moisture and harden and become longer lived in the shower. Cream soap "rots" and changes texture. LS sequesters so impurities can settle out.

Hope this helps rather than increases any confusion.....

 

[Stacy]

I completely own up to all the confusion in this thread! :eh:

Although since we're on the topic now, cmzaha said that cream soaps will need a preservative, while LS doesn't. Is there a reason for this? I understand it in lotions etc since there is nothing to prevent growth of the nasties like there is in soap, but how does CS vary specifically that it needs to be preserved?

I really need to find me a chemistry class. You people who actually know what's going on (I'm looking at you, DeeAnna, since you're right there) as opposed to trial, error and a good does of luck are giving me an inferiority complex. :lolno:

 

[Lindy]

I have posted a tutorial on cream soap at http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=463625#post463625

 

[DeeAnna]

"...cream soaps will need a preservative, while LS doesn't..."

I think you're going to find a range of opinions, pro and con, about preservatives for cream and liquid soap. Some argue the high pH of the soap is preservative enough most of the time. I'd say that's true most of the time, although we do see the occasional picture of moldy, nasty bar soap on SMF -- usually when folks load their soap up with food puree and sprinkle yummy bits of food on top of the loaf -- so high pH is not a surefire preservative if a person loads a soap up with non-soap additives. Even with a relatively high pH, cream and liquid soap are diluted products, compared with bar soap, and that is enough of a reason for some to recommend using a preservative.

I think how the cream or liquid soap is made, the superfat, the additives, manufacturing methods, sanitation, etc. all contribute to the problem, so I can see both sides of the argument. I'm more likely to preserve diluted liquid soap ... but that's just me. Not sure about my opinion on cream soap, since I've not yet made any. One of the other issues to consider is there are few preservatives that are effective in high pH products -- it seems as if Suttocide and Germall Plus are the only realistic options for handcrafters.

 

[seven]

Is it possible to make a castile cream soap? I know stearic is essential, so perhaps olive & stearic (& glycerin) only?

Or do you think a bastille might be better? Olive, stearic, and coconut?

 

[DeeAnna]

I'd say by a strict definition, you'd be making a bastile anyways. Setting semantics aside, I think I'd want some bubbly lather making fats (coconut, pko, etc.) in the recipe.

Look at it from the perspective of formulating CP soap -- what would you think a bath bar would be like that is just stearic and OO? I'm guessing the lather would be difficult to build due to the low-solubility stearic soap. Since there would be little or no myristic or lauric soap in the bar to build fast bubbly suds, the lather that does develop would be mostly lotiony or creamy with few large bubbles. I'd think the trend would be the same for the equivalent cream soap, even though a cream soap is mostly KOH to increase the soap's solubility and softness. It might be fine for a product that doesn't need a lot of bubbles -- a face scrub, perhaps?

That said, I haven't tried it, so my thinking is just my opinion, not personal experience. I'd really be interested in hearing how it turns out, if you try this!

 

[seven]

^^^
good observation DeeAnna, very logical. i think by just incorporating oo and stearic, the lather will be a bit dull. and you were right, a bastille seems more appropriate. i think i would go with mostly stearic, and split the rest with olive and coconut. the reason i asked about this is because i have a customer who is crazyyyyy about castile. she likes my scrub so much (it has a cream soap base) and is now eager to try cream soap on its own (a castile cream soap that is). guess i will have to tell her that a bastille will be more suitable.

does anyone know the minimal amount of stearic needed? looking at Lindy's recipe in the tutorial, it was around 38% if my calculation was right.

 

[DeeAnna]

This gal does a nice job of analyzing cream soap recipes: http://essenceartisansoapsandmore.blogspot.ca/search/label/Cream Soap

I looked at a bunch of recipes myself. Some recipes, like the cream soap recipes on Snowdrift Farms, are unusual and I decided to not look too close at them. Other recipes are fairly consistent in their fatty acid composition, NaOH-KOH ratio, etc. I've summarized the results of those recipes --

Lauric averaged 9 with max-min of 12 and 5
Myristic averaged 4 with max-min of 5 and 2

Palmitic averaged 31 with max-min of 36 and 24
Stearic averaged 30 with max-min of 36 and 24

Commercial stearic acid is very roughly half palmitic and half stearic, so the composition fits pretty well with what I saw in the recipes for overall stearic & palmitic content. Of course you can add stearic and palmitic with lard, tallow, and butters too.

Oleic averaged 16 with max-min of 25 and 8
Ricinoleic averaged 4 with max-min of 8 and 0

Linoleic averaged 4 with max-min of 11 and 2
Linolenic averaged 0 with max-min of 1 and 0

INS averaged 181 with max-min of 195 and 172
Iodine averaged 26 with max-min of 36 and 16

NaOH % averaged 20% with max-min of 24% and 15%
Translation: This is the % of NaOH in the recipe with the rest being KOH. So if NaOH is 20%, then KOH is 80%.

Lye solution concentration averaged 15% with max-min of 25% and 10%

 

[DeeAnna]

Hey, Boyago and other shaver soap dudes -- don't these numbers vaguely remind you of shave soap recipes?

 

[Lindy]

You can definitely make a Castille Cream Soap. Since stearic acid is not considered an oil but rather an additive to the soap.