CPLS : Seeking advise on formulating the recipe

[Lankan]

I'm planning to work on my 2nd batch of CP liquid soap this weekend. I have limited options when it comes to variety of oil that I can source. My first batch suffered some issues, hence I has to discard most of it. I've listed the items in my disposal and the blend I thought of trying.

Palm oil
Coconut oil
Sunflower oil
Glycerin
Fragrance - Fruity Strawberry
90% KOH
99% NaOH
Honey/suger
Salt as thickener
Water soluble pink/red

My recipe contains the oils blend comprising of the following

Palm oil - 325g
Coconut oil - 75g
Sunflower oil - 100g
Super fat -2.5%
Fragrance - 5g

Soapee results are as follows

In addition to the above ingredients, I'm planning to add of about 1 table spoon of honey to the blend and salt as thickener once diluted at water to soap ratio of 2:1.

I would appreciate the community input on any improvement that I can make on the blend to improve the soap properties, any possible use of other materials I've listed above (ie. Glycerin, NaOH), a different dilution ratio etc.

Thank you

 

[DeeAnna]

You asked by PM for feedback. I think the recipe looks fine. Give it a try.

With oleic at only 30%, the diluted soap may not thicken well with salt. The best way to thicken with salt is to find the optimum dilution to give as thick a product as possible (this will probably less water than 2:1 water-to-paste ratio), and then add small doses of salt to a sample of the soap to see how it performs.

If you go outside the ideal dilution even with a high oleic acid content, you may find salt may have little or no effect. You may need to consider using a separate thickener that does not depend on the soap content.

I see you are going to use a negative superfat. Do you plan to neutralize the soap after it's done?

 

[Lankan]

Thanks for the feedback DeeAnna.

I've miss typed i guess. it's going to be 2.5% superfat, not negative.

I read about using citric acid as chelator in one of your posts. Can I add Sodium Citrate to KOH soap, because citrate made using baking soda would be sodium citrate, which is readily available.

I'm trying to understand the correct point of time to add the followings, whether to add during stick blending or when diluting the paste with water?

EO/Fragrance
Citrate
Colorants

 

[DeeAnna]

I've miss typed i guess. it's going to be 2.5% superfat, not negative.

Oh, I misunderstood the dash -- you were using it as a separator and I took it to be a minus sign. I understand now!

"...I read about using citric acid as chelator in one of your posts. Can I add Sodium Citrate to KOH soap..."

Yes. The chelator is the citrate ion, not the sodium citrate molecule (or the potassium citrate molecule if you had that to use.) The added sodium is not going to be a problem.

"...I'm trying to understand the correct point of time to add the followings, whether to add during stick blending or when diluting the paste with water?"

There is no right answer, but IMO all should be added after dilution is complete --

All these additives should be based on the total product weight not the starting paste weight. You won't know the total weight until after you dilute.

You should always test a new scent (and new colorant) by first adding it to a sample of the finished diluted soap to see if the combination works. Scents can cloud, thicken, clump, or thin out the soap. And scents can separate out. If there are problems with separation, you can warm the soap and/or add Polysorbate 80 (or equivalent) to help the scent stay in solution with the soap.

I haven't used colorants in my soap, but I know from listening to other soapers that pigmented colorants usually settle out. I imagine there might be other colorants that could float on top of or cloud the soap. So testing with colorants would also be a wise choice.

You may also want to adjust the color and scent for best appearance and aroma and the best time to do that is when the soap is diluted. Some scents are very strong so you would use less of them. Same thing for colors.

You may not want to scent and color the whole batch all one way.​

 

[KimT2au]

Hi Lankan

I have only done a few batches of liquid soap so I am not really experienced. However, I found glycerin added during the dilution helped with thickening. The other thing I do is that if I introduce a sugar (I adore honey in things) I add a preservative. I know theory says that it is not necessary due to the Ph of the soap but you have water and sugar so I think it pays to be careful. Good luck.

 

[Lankan]

Hi Lankan

I have only done a few batches of liquid soap so I am not really experienced. However, I found glycerin added during the dilution helped with thickening. The other thing I do is that if I introduce a sugar (I adore honey in things) I add a preservative. I know theory says that it is not necessary due to the Ph of the soap but you have water and sugar so I think it pays to be careful. Good luck.

Does sugar/Honey works as a preservative in LS.? I've added sugar because it said to be improving the lather. I used salt as thickener after diluting. It worked well. I have never added glycerin. Let me try this time on a test quantity. thanks

 

[Lankan]

Oh, I misunderstood the dash -- you were using it as a separator and I took it to be a minus sign. I understand now!

"...I read about using citric acid as chelator in one of your posts. Can I add Sodium Citrate to KOH soap..."

Yes. The chelator is the citrate ion, not the sodium citrate molecule (or the potassium citrate molecule if you had that to use.) The added sodium is not going to be a problem.

"...I'm trying to understand the correct point of time to add the followings, whether to add during stick blending or when diluting the paste with water?"

There is no right answer, but IMO all should be added after dilution is complete --

All these additives should be based on the total product weight not the starting paste weight. You won't know the total weight until after you dilute.

You should always test a new scent (and new colorant) by first adding it to a sample of the finished diluted soap to see if the combination works. Scents can cloud, thicken, clump, or thin out the soap. And scents can separate out. If there are problems with separation, you can warm the soap and/or add Polysorbate 80 (or equivalent) to help the scent stay in solution with the soap.

I haven't used colorants in my soap, but I know from listening to other soapers that pigmented colorants usually settle out. I imagine there might be other colorants that could float on top of or cloud the soap. So testing with colorants would also be a wise choice.

You may also want to adjust the color and scent for best appearance and aroma and the best time to do that is when the soap is diluted. Some scents are very strong so you would use less of them. Same thing for colors.

You may not want to scent and color the whole batch all one way.​

Thanks for your detailed explanation. The place I sourced the ingredients said pigment colors are oil soluble hence good for bar soap only. Since the CPLS is mostly water, they've recommended a water soluble colorant (called detergent colors).

I actually added this water soluble color in my first batch, when stick blending. However, my batch was oil heavy and only part became usable soap paste. However, the color I've added had separated out of the soap paste and remained with the oil heavy portion of the mix, which I had to through away. Given this experience, I thought of adding the color during dilution this time and see.

 

[KimT2au]

Does sugar/Honey works as a preservative in LS.?

No, it has the opposite effect. Water plus sugar is an invitation to a microbial party , that is why I add a preservative. I add honey simply because I love the smell but I know I have to add a preservative if I do.

 

[Lankan]

Hi,

Finally I've a good news to share... After two weeks of planning and getting advises from you all, I finally managed to make my 2nd batch of CPLS which turned out to be perfectly fine. Although I've posted on the recipe and sought your advises, I made some changes to the final blend before mixing the oils.. However when measuring there were some slight differences and accordingly I've adjusted my lye input.

The very first difference I made was adding NaOH also into lye solution, hence making it a hybrid soap. I did this to expedite the trace. the other changes were adding olive oil to the blend in addition to planned palm, coconut and sunflower oils. while stick blending added 50 grams of vegetable glycerin also.

the final blend of oils consisted of the following,

Palm oil 291g
Coconut oil 100g
Sunflower oil 85g
Olive oil 28g

the odd values are the errors that came up when measuring, so I adjusted the lye accordingly. The soapee results for 80:20 KOH : NaOH composition is as follows.

I measured before weighing out the KOH & NaOH I weighted the packs which contained them. I noticed that KOH, which should weigh 120g is actually gone up to 140g (last time I used 130g of KOH out of the 250g bought). I remember reading somewhere in the forum that KOH picks up moisture very fast.

Hence recalculated the KOH purity as follows, (120g*90%)/140 = 77%, to be in the safe side used 78.5% purity in the soapee calc and increased the KOH to 102g.

It took 1 hour of stick blending for the blend to finally trace. I think NaOH helped to expedite the trace but Olive worked on other direction.

Did zap test twice, but didn't feel any burn. hope all went well. below is the final paste I got.

full work notes can be found here

Thanks again for your valuable advises in making this.

 

[Lankan]

I faced a not so normal scenario yesterday with this batch. last week I've taken out approx.166g of the paste and diluted with 500ml of distilled water (1:3) and very little amount of salt solution to thicken the paste. I didn't make it very thick just an amount to reduce the watery feel. later added EO/FO ( I don't know which one) and divided in to two bottles and added food colors (Bottle 1 - E122 Carmoisine & Bottle 2 - E127 Erythrosine).

The soap appeared and smelled nice and we were using the bottle 1 for a week in the kitchen as hand-wash. Last couple of days the rain has started and the temperature fell little less than the normal days. I live in a tropical country, the normal temperature means 30C and yesterday it was 26C.

Yesterday morning we started noticing gel like pieces in the soap we were using and it became little harder to pump out the soap from the bottle. So I gave it a good shake and left it. after about an hour it has become fully solid like Jelly and can't pump out from the bottle. the temperature in side the soap bottle was around 79.c. Later I left the soap bottle close to the stove for about 30 minutes. the soap melted and became liquid again. I noticed that this issue is more on bottle 1 containing E122 than the bottle 2 containing E127.

I'm finding it difficult to understand the reason that could have caused this. If you see my diluted soap has less than 5% coconut oil and all the other oils used are in liquid form at that temperature. even coconut oil's melting point is 76C, hence all the oils I have used are in liquid form. I have about half a bottle of diluted soap (at 1:2) from my previous batch in the bathroom. It's unscented, and does not contain any added colors. it did't face any such issues.

What could have caused this issue, Is this normal? Can the colors caused this?

does melting points of oils have any bearing when it comes to determining the melting point of diluted soap?.

 

[BattleGnome]

To me, what you’re describing sounds like what happens when you try to make liquid soap from a traditional bar soap. You said this was a hybrid, maybe the 20% NaOH was enough to facilitate the gelling when the weather changed.

Just a theory, I don’t know enough of the science to know for sure

 

[Lankan]

To me, what you’re describing sounds like what happens when you try to make liquid soap from a traditional bar soap. You said this was a hybrid, maybe the 20% NaOH was enough to facilitate the gelling when the weather changed.

Just a theory, I don’t know enough of the science to know for sure

I didn't try to make liquid soap from bar soap. It's a hybrid soap paste with 20% NaOH & 80% KOH, thru cold processed method. My previous batch was 100% KOH. Hence it's a difference between the two batches. Do you think that allowing enough time would make the NaOH based soap portion to separate and settle down, I didn't find any material suggesting something like this happening in hybrid soaps.

 

[DeeAnna]

I didn't try to make liquid soap from bar soap....

BattleGnome didn't say you made your liquid soap out of bar soap. BG's main point is this: "...the 20% NaOH was enough to facilitate the gelling when the weather changed..."

"...Do you think that allowing enough time would make the NaOH based soap portion to separate and settle down..."

No, it won't separate out. The mixture will stay mixed.

"I didn't find any material suggesting something like this happening in hybrid soaps...."

We have had some discussions about this from time to time, but it's not a question that comes up often. Here's something I wrote in 2016: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/dual-lye-castile.59747/page-2#post-595776

"does melting points of oils have any bearing when it comes to determining the melting point of diluted soap?..."

No. Soap is not made directly from fats, it's made from fatty acids. Yes, I know we usually start with fats to make soap, but the fats must first be broken down into fatty acids and glycerin. It's the fatty acids that then become soap. You can't directly compare the properties of the soap with the properties of the fats from which the soap is made. You have to look at the fatty acid profile instead.

 

[Lankan]

BattleGnome didn't say you made your liquid soap out of bar soap. BG's main point is this: "...the 20% NaOH was enough to facilitate the gelling when the weather changed..."

"...Do you think that allowing enough time would make the NaOH based soap portion to separate and settle down..."

No, it won't separate out. The mixture will stay mixed.

"I didn't find any material suggesting something like this happening in hybrid soaps...."

We have had some discussions about this from time to time, but it's not a question that comes up often. Here's something I wrote in 2016: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/dual-lye-castile.59747/page-2#post-595776

"does melting points of oils have any bearing when it comes to determining the melting point of diluted soap?..."

No. Soap is not made directly from fats, it's made from fatty acids. Yes, I know we usually start with fats to make soap, but the fats must first be broken down into fatty acids and glycerin. It's the fatty acids that then become soap. You can't directly compare the properties of the soap with the properties of the fats from which the soap is made. You have to look at the fatty acid profile instead.

Thanks for the explanation. I read thru the link shared, where you've said with the abundance of water content, the Sodium soap will stop trying to be organized,thereby forming a water thin soap. I've diluted this lot at 1:3, do you think increasing the water content to 1:4 & 1:5 might help to avoid gelling. Do have to stop using salt to thicken the paste?.

 

[DeeAnna]

...with the abundance of water content, the Sodium soap will stop trying to be organized,thereby forming a water thin soap. ... do you think increasing the water content to 1:4 & 1:5 might help to avoid gelling. Do have to stop using salt to thicken the paste?.

I don't know. You'll have to try it and find out. Shifting into a non-pourable gel could be coming from (1) the cooling as your weather changes and/or (2) the gradual and ongoing process of the sodium soap molecules organizing themselves.

If the cause is Reason #1 and you expect to mostly use the soap while the weather is cooler, then diluting a bit more might be a good answer. Increasing the dilution from 3:1 to 4:1 or 5:1 might be too much, however. Don't get stuck on diluting to a precise ratio of water to paste. The soap needs what it needs.

If it's Reason #2, it's anybody's guess if more dilution will work as a permanent fix. You may find the soap will appear fine after adding some more water, but thickens up after some time. That's the sodium soap doing its thing.

I made a very high oleic soap (with 100% KOH) that kept thickening to a non-pourable gel. I kept diluting it more more and more and getting the same result. The dilution that finally prevented the gel was a 10:1 water-to-paste mixture, but this soap was over-diluted. It felt like washing with plain water -- no suds, poor cleansing. I didn't like it, and the lesson I learned is too much oleic acid can be as bad as too little. I'm not saying that will be your experience -- just sharing this story to let you know some things don't work out the way you would like.

Regarding salt for thickening ...

You have a soap that's thickening up too much on its own due to the 20% sodium soap content. I can't quite figure out why you would then want to add salt for thickening. You say "to thicken the paste" not to thicken the diluted soap, so maybe I'm missing something here. Not sure what to advise.

 

[Lankan]

I can't quite figure out why you would then want to add salt for thickening. You say "to thicken the paste" not to thicken the diluted soap, so maybe I'm missing something here. Not sure what to advise.

Thanks for the explanations. When I said paste, I was actually referring to the diluted soap only. I used salt as thickener soon after diluting the paste in water at 3:1 ratio. The soap wasn't thick or syrupy at that point. that's why I added salt. But few days later it started to gel out when temperature dropped from 30C range to 27~26C range. I'll try to increase the water content on incremental basis and test the soap.

I made a very high oleic soap (with 100% KOH) that kept thickening to a non-pourable gel. I kept diluting it more more and more and getting the same result.

Does it mean that the gelling could be happening in high Oleic soap even if the soap is totally based on KOH.? Is it possible to share the % of Oleic acid in the batch you referred above. The batch I've made has 31% Oleic acid content according to soapee calc.

 

[DeeAnna]

...few days later it started to gel out when temperature dropped from 30C range to 27~26C range. I'll try to increase the water content on incremental basis and test the soap.

I'm leaning now toward simple temperature change as being the cause of the thickening. I suspect if your temps go up, you'll be back to thinner soap again.

...Does it mean that the gelling could be happening in high Oleic soap even if the soap is totally based on KOH.?

Yes that is correct. The nature of soap made with oleic acid is to form a gel given sufficient water. This is true whether you use NaOH or KOH, although the nature of the gel and the amount of water required will vary.

I used 100% high oleic Sunflower at about 70% oleic acid, as I recall, with KOH and no salt. Bear in mind you have used a mix of KOH and NaOH and also salt with your batch, so the two cannot be directly compared.

 

[Lankan]

I'm leaning now toward simple temperature change as being the cause of the thickening. I suspect if your temps go up, you'll be back to thinner soap again.

Yes this is exactly what is happening. it changes from thick to thin within a very short range of temperature change.

I used 100% high oleic Sunflower at about 70% oleic acid, as I recall, with KOH and no salt. Bear in mind you have used a mix of KOH and NaOH and also salt with your batch, so the two cannot be directly compared.

Yes, I understand. Mine is a hybrid soap with 20% NaOH. I've added salt on a small amount which I diluted. So I have plenty of paste to dilute without adding salt. The Oleic acid content in Olive oil is also about 69%, does it mean a 100% KOH based pure liquid castile soap will also suffer this same issue.? If so whether there are any ways to avoid this from happening, are there any tried and tested dilution ratio for liquid castile soaps.

 

[Susie]

1. NaOH does not expedite trace. Either a bit of paste from previously made soap, some grated handmade bar soap, or using at least partial glycerin to make the paste will. however. You need something to kick start the process. NaOH will not.
2. Do not add any food products such as milk, sugar, honey to soap after you have made the paste. You are inviting pathogens to the party.
3. I would never try to thicken a soap with brine (salt water) until I had thoroughly tested my recipe previously over many months unless it was a very small sample. Get to know your soap and recipe before adding any additives. You may be trying to fix something that is not broken. And you need to troubleshoot your original recipe first.
4. I have made many hybrid liquid soaps and have never had any gel up after dilution. I would look to the colorants first. Make a batch that does not get colorants added and test that side by side with what you already have. I would even go so far as to stick it in the refrigerator to quickly assess temperature changes. If the non colored batch does not react like the colored batch(es), I would go ask whomever made the colorants all the ingredients of those colorants. I highly suspect there is a thickener in that colorant.
5. I think you missed what DeeAnna said, "Don't get stuck on diluting to a precise ratio of water to paste. The soap needs what it needs." It does need what it needs. You "sneak up" on dilution starting with 1:0.5 ratio of paste to water and add small amounts in there infrequently until you have just one or two small lumps of paste in there. Be sure to weigh each addition carefully, and record the paste/water ratio for that recipe so you will know about what you will need next time you make it. I am highly suspect of people (with the exception of a few on this forum) who mandate a set dilution for a recipe.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...does it mean a 100% KOH based pure liquid castile soap will also suffer this same issue.?..."

Here's a hint -- Oleic acid is oleic acid no matter where it comes from. Soap is made from fatty acids, not fats. Soap does not care where the fatty acids come from. Given that hint, what do you think is the answer?

edit: Also having just read what Susie said -- I agree with her about using NaOH soap, not just NaOH the alkali, if your goal is to make it easier and faster for the soap batter to reach trace.

Trace is the stage when the batter gives you a visible indication that it has become a stable emulsion. Soap batter reaches a stable emulsion only after the amount of actual finished soap has gotten high enough that the soap can act as an emulsifier. If you add ready-made soap to the batter when you first start to make soap, the batter will get to that point of visible, stable emulsion (aka trace) a little easier.