Cp vs Hp cure

[Luisa]

Hoping someone can answer a questions.

1. Which method yields soap that can be used quicker HP or CP?

Here is the reason a friend is having a baby shower and her original favors will not arrive in time so she asked me to make some soaps. I have always done CP but always read they need to cure 4-6 weeks before they can be used. Did some reading and found that HP can be used sooner (shower is in 2 weeks). I made 2 batches of HP using a tried recipe but its still soft after 2 days.
Advice and help please.

 

[Saponomancer]

They all need at least four weeks, I would go with melt and pour, lotion, scrubs, or bath salts instead.

 

[BattleGnome]

Ditto what DragonGirl said.

If you don't usually M&P, Brambleberry has baby shower M&P kits. Little onesie molds with either blue or pink soaps

 

[Luisa]

Thank you, I may just do something else.She had her heart set on soap but I am sure once I explain it to her we can come up with something. Will check out the M&P kits.

 

[Arimara]

HP soaps can sometimes take even longer than CP soaps to cure because of extra liquid in the recipe. Ive had this happen a few times with HP. I also favor the M&P soaps for your friend. If you'd like, you can help her make a batch of soap for her to have for after the baby is born (though NOT for the baby).

 

[Susie]

You could also make lotion bars using some of those molds. There is a discussion on "In Shower Lotion Bars" with some recipes on the BBW forum.

 

[Luisa]

Thank you everyone. I think I have convinced her to go with bath salts and sugar scrubs for now. I guess what I was really wondering is when is HP "safe" from what I read you cook all the lye during this method as opposed to CP where it cures to process the rest of the lye. I have only ever made CP and plan projects way in advance but like I said she was in a jam.

 

[makemineirish]

Thank you everyone. I think I have convinced her to go with bath salts and sugar scrubs for now. I guess what I was really wondering is when is HP "safe" from what I read you cook all the lye during this method as opposed to CP where it cures to process the rest of the lye. I have only ever made CP and plan projects way in advance but like I said she was in a jam.

I think that you are conflating saponification with cure. My understanding is that saponification is completed during the process of hot process and takes less than a week in cold. The soap is "safe" once saponification is complete.

Curing soap is necessary to eliminate excess water through evaporation over time. Tracking the soap weight over time helps to determine when the cure is complete by establishing that water loss has leveled off.

I was under the impression that you could use hot process immediately, but should not. The water content would result in an incredibly soft bar that disintegrates with minimal usage.

The differing opinions on how long to cure HP is due, in part, to the makers' process. Those who process the soap while stirring and uncovered achieve greater evaporation during the cook and require a shorter cure. However, the batter is much thicker and results in a very "rustic" finished product. Those who keep the crock covered with saran and/or employ a "fluid" techniques get a batter that they can incorporate more design into and a smoother texture. The trade-off is greater water retention that requires a longer cure.

All soap benefits from a longer cure to achieve a bar with real longevity and there is evidence to suggest that further changes occur in the finished product beyond the point at which it is "safe".

I am sorry if my answers are not as straightforward as you would like. Please chime in if anyone feels that I have misunderstood or misstated something. With two weeks, you could probably make a rustic HP that was "safe" soap, but I would argue that it would not be good soap.

 

[Seawolfe]

HP (and CP) are safe to use within a few days of making, but they aren't very nice. I made favors for my friends big fat gay wedding, they included lotion bars, bath bombs and little candles. We boxed them up and called them "D & D's Love Boxes" (You have to say that in a voice like Barry White for it to make sense). Anyways - people love bath bombs and lotion bars, just sayin'.

 

[Luisa]

Maikemineirish- Your answer was perfect, yes I guess I should have asked about saponification instead of cure. I do realize both need time to evaporate, and I mentioned never an issue I always have plenty of lead time. Someone else promised her soap and now they cant deliver so I am trying to "save the day". I have explained it to her and she is okay with other bath products so I will be making scrubs and bath salts. I am even crocheting some bath poofs to go with them.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas and advice.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I would say that water loss and cure are also not exactly intrinsically linked - many soaps improve a lot well after they stop losing water in any meaningful way. It's a good idea to keep that separation in mind

 

[makemineirish]

I would say that water loss and cure are also not exactly intrinsically linked - many soaps improve a lot well after they stop losing water in any meaningful way. It's a good idea to keep that separation in mind

I agree and tried to make that distinction when I stated that further changes occur during cure. However, I feel that a different term needs to be used. I mentally compartmentalize the process into saponification, cure, and age.

Saponification can be deemed complete once all of the fatty triglycerides have completed their reaction with the NaOH/KOH and is safe to touch.

Cure, to me, is complete once my soap is no longer demonstrating the weight fluctuation attributable to evaporative water loss. I can closely approximate the date at which this will occur based on the lye concentration used in my recipe.

As as often discussed on the forum, many soaps improve with age. I prefer to think of this much differently from "cure" and should have been more clear regarding that in my previous post.

I feel that the failure to distinguish between saponification, curing, and aging soap is often misleading to neophytes. It certainly was to me, at least.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As I never weigh my soap, cure and age are not distinct for me. If a soap needs to "age" to a certain point then it not overly important to know when it was "cured" in your terminology, as "aging" is unlikely to be before it is "cured".

So I simply leave mine to cure how long they need to. Water loss is not considered separately

 

[Arimara]

I think that you are conflating saponification with cure. My understanding is that saponification is completed during the process of hot process and takes less than a week in cold. The soap is "safe" once saponification is complete.

Curing soap is necessary to eliminate excess water through evaporation over time. Tracking the soap weight over time helps to determine when the cure is complete by establishing that water loss has leveled off.

I was under the impression that you could use hot process immediately, but should not. The water content would result in an incredibly soft bar that disintegrates with minimal usage.

The differing opinions on how long to cure HP is due, in part, to the makers' process. Those who process the soap while stirring and uncovered achieve greater evaporation during the cook and require a shorter cure. However, the batter is much thicker and results in a very "rustic" finished product. Those who keep the crock covered with saran and/or employ a "fluid" techniques get a batter that they can incorporate more design into and a smoother texture. The trade-off is greater water retention that requires a longer cure.

All soap benefits from a longer cure to achieve a bar with real longevity and there is evidence to suggest that further changes occur in the finished product beyond the point at which it is "safe".

I am sorry if my answers are not as straightforward as you would like. Please chime in if anyone feels that I have misunderstood or misstated something. With two weeks, you could probably make a rustic HP that was "safe" soap, but I would argue that it would not be good soap.

You forgot about gelling soaps. Gelling is done with CP soaps and is also another way to speed up saponification. It does warrant a longer explanation and I apologize for not going into detail. I'm not quite feeling well today.

 

[DeeAnna]

Gel is a phase change in soap where it goes from a solid to a liquid/paste form. Soap that goes into gel doesn't necessarily saponify faster than soap that gets just as warm but doesn't gel.

HP soap and CP soap that has been CPOP'ed or otherwise allowed to get sufficiently warm (gel or no gel) will saponify rapidly. CP soap that has been put in the fridge or freezer or otherwise kept fairly cool will saponify slowly.

 

[makemineirish]

As I never weigh my soap, cure and age are not distinct for me. If a soap needs to "age" to a certain point then it not overly important to know when it was "cured" in your terminology, as "aging" is unlikely to be before it is "cured".

So I simply leave mine to cure how long they need to. Water loss is not considered separately

I can certainly understand this viewpoint, especially for someone as experienced as you. I am assuming that you have made your recipes countless times and pinpointed the curing/aging period that results in an optimal product.

As a hobbyist, I rarely repeat myself and am unclear on when this point may be. Much of what I do is the first time: new recipe, ingredient, fragrance oil, technique, etc. This past weekend, I made my first batch of hot process to try some things that were new to me and a couple of ideas that I was not sure anyone else had done.

Therefore, I make a distinction between saponification, cure, and age. I do not handle the soap without gloves/washing until fully saponified. I weigh the soap to verify when the cure is complete (an idea I got from Kevin Dunn's book) and make a note on the recipe for my records. Whenever the soap dish is empty, I alternate between batches that have already cured. This allows me to try the soap at 2, 6, or 12 months so that I can have an opinion on when it has aged appropriately.

This is not really extra work, just additional observation. If I have repeated a recipe enough that I the optimum curing/aging time is already known, there is no reason to make a distinction. However, the only way that I get to that point is by doing so.

 

[earlene]

Luisa, I'm glad you have an alternative plan. I wouldn't give soap away that I haven't tried myself and ensured it is at its optimum, and that's what you end up doing if you do a rush soap like that so you can give it away at the last minute. Even if you go the MP route, I urge you to test your finished product to see how it feels and how it holds up to use.

I have actually bought MP soap that fell apart with the first use. The problem was with the embeds not adhering to the surrounding soap. So for your first MP project, I suggest doing something simple, avoid embeds the first time out. Make at least 4 extras (maybe more) so you can choose the best ones for the favors. And use the rejects yourself as a testers to see how they feel/hold up.

Another cool thing to suggest to your friend is that she buy some soap savers upon which the soaps can sit above the draining water & include one with each bar as her party favors.