CP spots

[dorsetdaughters]

I have been making soap for over a decade. So when all of a sudden I can no longer make soap that isn't wonky, it's incredibly frustrating!! Here are photos of the problem (well, I would add photos, but can't for the life of me figure out how). Small, evenly distributed on all surfaces, white spots (they show up as clear spots in the soap with titanium dioxide). There are three options as I can figure it: stearic spots, wire cutter issues, or glycerin rivers. I soap with oils and lye between 120F and 130F, though it has also happened with oils at lower temps and lye at room temp. It has happened with two different recipes - one with coconut oil, palm oil, castor oil, olive oil, and sunflower; one with coconut, sunflower, castor, hempseed, shea butter and cocoa butter. My fatty acid profiles seem to be good for both recipes. So I don't think it's stearic spots - unless stearic/palmitic acid can form spots if the soap overheats in the mold? My batches are 13 pounds and I insulate my wooden molds but I don't supply additional heat. I cut after 48 hours in the mold. I don't think it's wire cutter issues because the white spots/clear spots are there regardless of whether I use a knife or wire to cut. The knife creates a smoother cut while the wire is a very textured cut, the spots are fainter but still there. I've had glycerin river issues in the past and they usually present as swirls or streaks, not dots. So... what am I doing wrong?
Photos: First photo is soap with titanium dioxide, cut with a knife. Second photo is cut with a wire cutter, there are white spots only in the corner of the soap. Third photo is cut with a knife. White spots are faint, but present. Fourth photo is cut with wire, texture and white spots are very apparent.

 

[dorsetdaughters]

I forgot to mention water discount - I use a 36% lye solution, and I use essential oils to scent. It happens no matter which essential oils I use.

 

[Lin19687]

1st pic looks like none of what you think. Looks to me like salt parts
2nd looks like the green also has some but they are green color and bottom corner looks like Stearic.
3rd, cant' tell
4th, the off white looks like it could be stearic and you ran your fingers over it to smooth it out but the white one looks like 1st pic

 

[dorsetdaughters]

Thanks for your reply!! Can you please tell me what salt parts are?

 

[Marilyn Norgart]

is the first picture of end pieces?
looks like I get when I have silicone rash

 

[dorsetdaughters]

is the first picture of end pieces?
looks like I get when I have silicone rash

While I do use both silicone and wooden molds, the ends/edges of the soap in both cases are quite smooth. It's only the cut edges that have the texture/spots.

 

[TheGecko]

Fourth photo is cut with wire, texture and white spots are very apparent.

I am all of a sudden having a similar problem, but it's not consistent. Three batches of soap poured into four molds; same exact base recipe (olive, coconut, palm and castor oil, and shea and cocoa butter. 35% lye. 1 tea PPO kaolin clay and sodium lactate.

#1 - 2lb mold, English Rose FO, Pink Clay swirl. Texture on the outside of the sides and ends, but not the bottom. Little bumps on the inside, but only the top 2/3.

#2 - 2lb mold, Amazing Grace FO, Pink and Purple Mica layered. Texture on the outside of the sides and ends, but not the bottom. Little bumps all over, with a couple of tiny white spots on some of the bars.

#3 - 1lb mold, split batch, Coffee House, all brown Mica. Outside is smooth, but I have bumps all over the inside and while they look white in the picture, they aren't.

#4 - 1lb mold, split batch, Indian Sandalwood FO, Red Sandalwood Powder, dash of Red Mica, swirled with plain batter. Outside was smooth, but I had some crumbling along the edges when cutting. Little bumps all over.

Sorry, I don't know how to add photos.

Because our weather has cooled considerably and I was having to wait two or three days to unmold and another three to four days to cut, when putting it in the garage, I first tried the in-house method...leaving it in the kitchen to saponify. Even covering and spraying with vodka, I got soda ash. I then left it on my kitchen island to start curing while I went to Utah for four days. I came back to massive amounts of soda ash. So I decided to increase my lye solution from 30% to 35% and I tried the Oven Process Method (heating oven to 170F and shutting off and leaving molds in overnight).

The 'good' news is that I can umold and cut in 18 hours. The 'bad' news is the above issues.

 

[dorsetdaughters]

I am all of a sudden having a similar problem, but it's not consistent.

Isn't it maddening to not be able to do something you've done a million times before?!? I hope someone here can help us!

 

[zanzalawi]

do the spots go away if you fun them through a planer?

 

[Jess_]

Just an idea, but have you started using a different batch of coconut oil? My first few loafs of soap appeared to be fine but when I had to buy new coconut oil spots very similar started to appear.

 

[SoapingWet]

How long have these cured? I've had similar spots that went away as the soap dried. No idea what caused them, but the spots didn't stay in my case.

 

[DeeAnna]

Been following this and would like to contribute, but I'm mystified by several mentions of things like "36% lye solution" or "35% lye". Do y'all mean "36% water as % of oils" or "35% lye concentration" here ... or something else?

In the first post, the specks in the lighter colored soap look like salt crystals that didn't dissolve or some other additive that didn't dissolve properly. I'm not saying you used salt, since you didn't mention that you did, just saying that's what it looks like. The specks in the yellow/ivory soap and the green soap look more like stearic spots.

The usual advice for stearic spots is to soap a little warmer to ensure the fats are fully melted, but be aware that pale clumps or lumps of soap (what we usually call stearic spots) can form for other reasons than soaping at too-cool temps.

One way to get stearic spots is to dissolve NaOH in a full-fat milk rather than water. The NaOH will saponify with the milk fat, then this mixture is added to the rest of the fats. The pale clumps of milk fat soap are dispersed in the rest of the batter, forming white spots.

The same thing can happen if the lye solution is made in a container that has some traces of fat left in it. The NaOH will saponify this fat and these clumps of soap will form pale dots in the finished soap.

And finally, stearic spots can form if the fats used are higher in free fatty acids (FFAs) than usual. FFAs react almost immediately with NaOH, and this again can cause lumps of pale colored soap in the finished bars.

 

[TheGecko]

Do y'all mean "36% water as % of oils" or "35% lye concentration" here ... or something else?

Oops...sorry, 35% lye solution.

The usual advice for stearic spots is to soap a little warmer to ensure the fats are fully melted

The oils/butters were plenty warm and melted but I think I have figured out part of the problem is and that is that I didn't fully melt my container of palm oil before adding it. I melted it about halfway, mixed it up and then added it. And even though my oils/butters are pretty warm when I add the lye solution, the lye solution isn't and it's bringing the oil temperature down...in an already cool house.

I'll try another batch this afternoon, fully melting the palm oil and only used half of the ice.

 

[dorsetdaughters]

Been following this and would like to contribute, but I'm mystified by several mentions of things like "36% lye solution" or "35% lye". Do y'all mean "36% water as % of oils" or "35% lye concentration" here ... or something else?

And finally, stearic spots can form if the fats used are higher in free fatty acids (FFAs) than usual. FFAs react almost immediately with NaOH, and this again can cause lumps of pale colored soap in the finished bars.

I use 23.65 oz lye and 41 oz water per batch with 166oz oils. 36% of the lye/water solution is lye.

I'm intrigued by the FFA idea. Can you tell me more about how to tell if this might be the issue? I will also do the usual online research. Thanks!

 

[dorsetdaughters]

How long have these cured? I've had similar spots that went away as the soap dried. No idea what caused them, but the spots didn't stay in my case.

These are only a couple days old, but they won't go away with aging, unfortunately.

 

[dorsetdaughters]

Just an idea, but have you started using a different batch of coconut oil? My first few loafs of soap appeared to be fine but when I had to buy new coconut oil spots very similar started to appear.

I have definitely wondered if it's my oils, but I go through a 40 pound box of coconut oil in a month or so, and this problem has been around for at least 6 months to a year. I previously used a recipe with palm oil and I figured it was the palm oil so I switched to a non-palm recipe and it's still a problem! So I don't think it's the oils - unless it's the Free Fatty Acid issue DeeAnna has mentioned. More research is in my future

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I'm intrigued by the FFA idea. Can you tell me more about how to tell if this might be the issue?..."

Without a chem lab to test for the FFA content of your fats, the main thing you can do is observe how your soap behaves. If all other things are the same, then faster trace can be one symptom. There are other factors that can cause faster trace, so it's not a surefire symptom of higher than usual FFA content, but it can be a signal. Another is the spots like those in Post 1.

"...36% of the lye/water solution is lye..."

Thanks! I would call that a 36% lye concentration.

"...Oops...sorry, 35% lye solution...."

Do you mean lye concentration rather than lye solution? I know I'm being nit-picky, but if I'm truly not sure about this, I know others will wonder too. If we only had "lye concentration" as the official measurement, then it would probably be pretty safe to assume (but not absolutely know) that 35% lye solution means 35% lye concentration. But a lot of people use "water as % of oils" and that is often confused with "lye concentration", so assuming anything isn't a good idea.