Confused about temperatures, mica and ash

[Vickyn]

Hi all. I'm new to CP and posted previously about a lot of ash. From my research I'm finding the average lye oil mixing temperature to be 110F. However when I've looked into adding mica, I'm getting a range of information from 80F to 120F and advice to heat the molds in ovens, heat pads or simple cardboard boxes.
I've done a number of experiments with a simple 30, 30, 30, 10 recipe. Coconut, Palm, Olive Oil Pomace and Castor and adding mica at 1 tsp per lb oils with a single solid colour. 33% lye concentration and 5% superfat.
The first batch was at 110F, then 100F and a 3rd at 90F. However I'm still getting mixed results.
Some are fine and have a little soda ash on the exposed side, even with isopropyl alcohol. Others form ash all over when I unmold. The only conclusion I have come to is that each colour needs different treatment.
Are there any resources that list what to do per colour in terms of lye/oil mixing temp; gel temperature or not gel and length of mold setting time? Or have ai got this completely wrong? Any suggestions would be really helpful.

 

[shunt2011]

If you are using high PH colorants temperature makes no difference in my experience. I do find gelling my soap makes the colors brighter. How much you use depends on the color you want.

Using 33% lye concentration should make a big difference in ash. How soon are you cutting. You may be cutting too soon. I soap with my oils just warm and room temp lye.

 

[Zing]

Welcome! My basic recipe is similar to yours and I use 1 tsp mica ppo. I no longer take a temperature but tend to soap in the high 90s/low 100s F. After pouring in my loaf mold, I spray with alcohol, cover with plastic wrap, put a piece of cardboard on top, and then several large towels. I have not gotten ash since I started doing this.

 

[Vickyn]

If you are using high PH colorants temperature makes no difference in my experience. I do find gelling my soap makes the colors brighter. How much you use depends on the color you want.

Using 33% lye concentration should make a big difference in ash. How soon are you cutting. You may be cutting too soon. I soap with my oils just warm and room temp lye.

Oh ok, so should I go higher with less water do you think?
I'm not using loaf molds. Silicone 75g square molds for colour testing. I have tried de molding at 1 day, 2 days and 3, but it's not making a lot of difference to the ash.
I'll try at room temp and see if that makes a difference. Thanks @shunt2011

Welcome! My basic recipe is similar to yours and I use 1 tsp mica ppo. I no longer take a temperature but tend to soap in the high 90s/low 100s F. After pouring in my loaf mold, I spray with alcohol, cover with plastic wrap, put a piece of cardboard on top, and then several large towels. I have not gotten ash since I started doing this.

Ah ok. I'll try with the additional insulation. How long are you leaving it before demolding or are you just checking air temp per batch?
Thanks for the tips @Zing

 

[shunt2011]

Individual molds are famous for getting ash. At least for me. I have been able to minimize it by spraying with alcohol after pouring then covering with plastic wrap and then putting a box over it and then a towel or two. I leave them along for a day or two. Then after taking out of the mold I spray the portion that was in the mold and cover with plastic wrap and a towel for a 2-3 days before exposing them to the air. I then place them on my curing racks. I only use individual molds for my salt soap though. Otherwise it's loaf molds.

 

[TheGecko]

Soda ash forms when unsaponified lye reacts with naturally-occurring carbon dioxide in the air. It typically shows up on top of soap, but in some cases it can run all the way through. Soda ash can also make the soap feel crumbly. It usually forms within 1-3 days. (SoapQueen)

I can vouch for the above. I had never had an issue with soda ash until I quit covering my soap during the saponification process. Soap that saponified in the house developed more ash than soap saponified in the garage. Smaller batches of soap, tended to develop more ash than larger batches. Soap that I left to cure in the house developed more ash than soap in the garage.

Never was this more evident when I made some 'sample' soap in a 15-cavity mold and got a little lazy. I had filled three molds, two went into the garage, one stayed in the house. The two in the garage were stacked on top of each other with via a ceramic cutting board, the other was left on top of my soaping cart. First thing I noticed when I brought the two in from the garage and set them next to the other that they all looked different. The one on the bottom of the two from the garage was a deeper color than the other two and had no ash, the one on top had a very light covering of ash, the one left in the kitchen was completely white on top. I took 10 from each mold and put in the garage to cure, the others I put on a tray and kept in the house. After four weeks I compared them. The five that were saponified and cured in the house were almost all ash, the five that were covered by the cutting board was about a quarter ash, the other was half ash. Of the soaps that had cured in the garage the 10 that had been covered during saponification had no ash, the 10 that had saponified uncovered in the garage just had a light sprinkling of ash, the 10 that had saponified in the kitchen had about a quarter of ash.

It was an expensive [not planned] experiment since I had used Essential Oil for that particular soap. But the result is that I cover all my soaps and put them in the garage or garage to saponify. Once all this CV-19 business is done and hubby can go to Home Depot safely, he's going to make covers for all my molds with 1/4" gaskets.

 

[Belindasuds]

Do you cover with plastic wrap after you spritz with alcohol? Adding this step to reduce the soaps exposure with the air can help with preventing ash. Also blending to a stable emulsion seems to help too. Thicker trace (even light to light medium - i.e. consistency of eggnog) tends to end up being less ashy in my experience. Also, be sure that the soap is fully saponified and cool before removing the plastic wrap and exposing the soap to the air. You can spritz again with alcohol when you remove the wrap to help discourage ash if you see it starting to form. I have found that some ingredients (colourants, scents) are more ash inducing than others. For instance when I use a lavender and activated charcoal it almost always gets ash, even if it's during the 4-6 weeks of curing. It's always light though and wipes away easily. You'll get to know what triggers it over time. Now I encourage it for certain creations, particularly for my piped succulents as it adds an extra level of realism.

 

[dotgiorgio]

To TheGecko: What temp is your garage? I live in Az & my garage is super hot in the summer compared to a garage in MO in the winter.
Also, is there anything I can do once the ash has formed? How heavy do you spritz the alcohol on? I lightly spray mine but still get ash.
I'm new at this & can use all the Info I can get.
Thanks!

 

[shunt2011]

To TheGecko: What temp is your garage? I live in Az & my garage is super hot in the summer compared to a garage in MO in the winter.
Also, is there anything I can do once the ash has formed? How heavy do you spritz the alcohol on? I lightly spray mine but still get ash.
I'm new at this & can use all the Info I can get.
Thanks!

Not Gecko. But you can steam it off or wash it off. I just embrace it when I get it.

 

[Vickyn]

Individual molds are famous for getting ash. At least for me. I have been able to minimize it by spraying with alcohol after pouring then covering with plastic wrap and then putting a box over it and then a towel or two. I leave them along for a day or two. Then after taking out of the mold I spray the portion that was in the mold and cover with plastic wrap and a towel for a 2-3 days before exposing them to the air. I then place them on my curing racks. I only use individual molds for my salt soap though. Otherwise it's loaf molds.

Thanks for the detailed steps. I'm already doing the alcohol, so I think I need more insulation. I'm definitely not covering them when I remove the soap from their molds, so that's a great tip. Thank you. I'll try that on the next batch.

Soda ash forms when unsaponified lye reacts with naturally-occurring carbon dioxide in the air. It typically shows up on top of soap, but in some cases it can run all the way through. Soda ash can also make the soap feel crumbly. It usually forms within 1-3 days. (SoapQueen)

I can vouch for the above. I had never had an issue with soda ash until I quit covering my soap during the saponification process. Soap that saponified in the house developed more ash than soap saponified in the garage. Smaller batches of soap, tended to develop more ash than larger batches. Soap that I left to cure in the house developed more ash than soap in the garage.

Never was this more evident when I made some 'sample' soap in a 15-cavity mold and got a little lazy. I had filled three molds, two went into the garage, one stayed in the house. The two in the garage were stacked on top of each other with via a ceramic cutting board, the other was left on top of my soaping cart. First thing I noticed when I brought the two in from the garage and set them next to the other that they all looked different. The one on the bottom of the two from the garage was a deeper color than the other two and had no ash, the one on top had a very light covering of ash, the one left in the kitchen was completely white on top. I took 10 from each mold and put in the garage to cure, the others I put on a tray and kept in the house. After four weeks I compared them. The five that were saponified and cured in the house were almost all ash, the five that were covered by the cutting board was about a quarter ash, the other was half ash. Of the soaps that had cured in the garage the 10 that had been covered during saponification had no ash, the 10 that had saponified uncovered in the garage just had a light sprinkling of ash, the 10 that had saponified in the kitchen had about a quarter of ash.

It was an expensive [not planned] experiment since I had used Essential Oil for that particular soap. But the result is that I cover all my soaps and put them in the garage or garage to saponify. Once all this CV-19 business is done and hubby can go to Home Depot safely, he's going to make covers for all my molds with 1/4" gaskets.

Thanks for the details on this. I think it definitely confirms the advice about insulation on the other posts. I live in a very small apartment in Hong Kong, so space and temperature variations are fairly easy to control, but the details on colour depth is interesting. I found that my orange colours have done a lot better and far less ash without insulation compared to the reds. So maybe that's something to focus on for further experimentation.

Do you cover with plastic wrap after you spritz with alcohol? Adding this step to reduce the soaps exposure with the air can help with preventing ash. Also blending to a stable emulsion seems to help too. Thicker trace (even light to light medium - i.e. consistency of eggnog) tends to end up being less ashy in my experience. Also, be sure that the soap is fully saponified and cool before removing the plastic wrap and exposing the soap to the air. You can spritz again with alcohol when you remove the wrap to help discourage ash if you see it starting to form. I have found that some ingredients (colourants, scents) are more ash inducing than others. For instance when I use a lavender and activated charcoal it almost always gets ash, even if it's during the 4-6 weeks of curing. It's always light though and wipes away easily. You'll get to know what triggers it over time. Now I encourage it for certain creations, particularly for my piped succulents as it adds an extra level of realism.

I hadn't come across advice for plastic wrap previously. Most people talk about cardboard boxes and towels, so no I hadn't done this. From all the posts here though it seems to be something I should definitely be doing. I am using alcohol and waiting for the soap to be cool before removing from the molds.
Your comments on the colour variation is interesting too. I found the same as you with charcoal and that oranges were doing better with less ash, and far brighter, at room temperature. So I think the colours do make a difference, as far as I can tell in my very limited experience.

I found this on Nature Soap website about oranges and corals.

Outstanding Oranges & Captivating Corals!

If anyone knows of other resources for other colours, I'd love to know.

 

[penelopejane]

Thanks for the detailed steps. I'm already doing the alcohol, so I think I need more insulation. I'm definitely not covering them when I remove the soap from their molds, so that's a great tip. Thank you. I'll try that on the next batch.

You are already using 33% lye concentration so you have that covered.
If you wait for your soap to skin over before you cover with plastic wrap you won't get marks on your soap.
Don't use too much alcohol as it can cause other problems. A light spray is fine.
If you have the time and don't need your mold for a while just keep your soap in the mold covered for a week and it should definitely reduce the ash. Shunt sells a lot of soap so probably can't afford to have soap sitting in molds for that long but for some of us it is easy just to let it sit, covered, and it works well.

 

[Vickyn]

You are already using 33% lye concentration so you have that covered.
If you wait for your soap to skin over before you cover with plastic wrap you won't get marks on your soap.
Don't use too much alcohol as it can cause other problems. A light spray is fine.
If you have the time and don't need your mold for a while just keep your soap in the mold covered for a week and it should definitely reduce the ash. Shunt sells a lot of soap so probably can't afford to have soap sitting in molds for that long but for some of us it is easy just to let it sit, covered, and it works well.

Thanks @penelopejane for your advice. I'm just making for myself so I can definitely leave them for for a week and something I haven't tried yet so that's fab. Thanks.
I think everyone here has mentioned the plastic wrap so I'll definitely add that in. It's not something I found in my general research before I started CP. Just proves how valuable these communities are for newbies like me who can get fab advice from experienced people like yourself.

 

[TheGecko]

@Vickyn

I thought I was well prepared to make soap as I took a slow, methodical approach; I had spent a good six months researching soap making and watching hundreds of hours of YouTube. But it wasn’t until I experienced soap making myself...the successes and the failures...that my real education started. This site has been invaluable to me. I had been making soap for a few months and while I had had some failures, I knew what I had done wrong, but then came my first batch of Goat Milk Soap...and it was a colossal failure. It was brown, it was oily and it smelled. I checked my notes...where did I go wrong? So I went to Google, found this site and found out that my soap had overheated, that I should have refrigerated it. And not only did I find out that it overheated, I found why it overheated. It’s those little thing...like the plastic wrap...that you don’t in a lot of places.

 

[Vickyn]

@TheGecko Oh indeed. Couldn't agree more. I did the same as you with the research and on my 10th batch of actual making now. Definitely a learning curve but I cant thank the members enough for all the help and tips. Even the mistakes are teaching me something and making me eager to learn..... although a few less would be nice

Today's batch of colour tests are all nicely snuggled with cling wrap and insulated and really looking forward to seeing the improvements.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

Thanks for the detailed steps. I'm already doing the alcohol, so I think I need more insulation. I'm definitely not covering them when I remove the soap from their molds, so that's a great tip. Thank you. I'll try that on the next batch.


Thanks for the details on this. I think it definitely confirms the advice about insulation on the other posts. I live in a very small apartment in Hong Kong, so space and temperature variations are fairly easy to control, but the details on colour depth is interesting. I found that my orange colours have done a lot better and far less ash without insulation compared to the reds. So maybe that's something to focus on for further experimentation.


I hadn't come across advice for plastic wrap previously. Most people talk about cardboard boxes and towels, so no I hadn't done this. From all the posts here though it seems to be something I should definitely be doing. I am using alcohol and waiting for the soap to be cool before removing from the molds.
Your comments on the colour variation is interesting too. I found the same as you with charcoal and that oranges were doing better with less ash, and far brighter, at room temperature. So I think the colours do make a difference, as far as I can tell in my very limited experience.

I found this on Nature Soap website about oranges and corals.

Outstanding Oranges & Captivating Corals!

If anyone knows of other resources for other colours, I'd love to know.

Talk about learning something new! In the first section of the page you linked the soap maker talks about an orange mica being heat sensitive. That seems inconsistent with the statement on the Nurture CP Mica Color Gallery page: "All colors were tested with a 50% lye solution and exposed to very high heat to test for heat stability."

 

[TheGecko]

@Vickyn - I don’t view my mistakes or failures as mistakes and failures...just opportunities to learn more.

 

[Vickyn]

Talk about learning something new! In the first section of the page you linked the soap maker talks about an orange mica being heat sensitive. That seems inconsistent with the statement on the Nurture CP Mica Color Gallery page: "All colors were tested with a 50% lye solution and exposed to very high heat to test for heat stability."

I'm finding the same thing with oranges at the moment. The colours change completely, depending on the heat. I mainly found out by mistake, but the link seemed to make sense to me, at least with my limited experience so far. I'm getting far less ash and bolder colours with less heat, but I am using a 33% lye solution. I also followed the 2 tsp ratio suggested in the post. Maybe the lye concentration is the key? Maybe the higher the concentration, the more heat you need?

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I have one mica called Summer Crush, which should produce an orange pink shade, that turned towards tan in a soap I made last fall. As I recall, the batch heated up a bit due to the floral fragrance and it definitely gelled, but it did not overheat. I don't recall how much mica I used. I had pretty much given up on the mica, but I may try it again in a test batch that I will keep cool. I have not had any problems getting good results with Nurture's Vibrance and Neon Orange micas regardless of how the soap is made. I find that gelling darkens my uncolored soaps and also gives them a bit of translucency. Both of those variables might affect the appearance of the final color of a lighter mica or mica used at a lower concentration. A high concentration of mica in a soap might counterbalance the darkening and translucency effects of gelling, but it would not be the solution if the color of the mica morphed due to high temperature. The best way to figure all of this out is with test color blocks and test soaps, but even after a year of soap making, I've got a long way to go on that front.

On the ash issue, I mostly use 33% lye concentration or higher and typically don't get much ash, but recipe, temperature, trace level, fragrances, additives and other variables also affect the outcome. In my limited experience, it's not a simple relationship.

 

[Vickyn]

I have one mica called Summer Crush, which should produce an orange pink shade, that turned towards tan in a soap I made last fall. As I recall, the batch heated up a bit due to the floral fragrance and it definitely gelled, but it did not overheat. I don't recall how much mica I used. I had pretty much given up on the mica, but I may try it again in a test batch that I will keep cool. I have not had any problems getting good results with Nurture's Vibrance and Neon Orange micas regardless of how the soap is made. I find that gelling darkens my uncolored soaps and also gives them a bit of translucency. Both of those variables might affect the appearance of the final color of a lighter mica or mica used at a lower concentration. A high concentration of mica in a soap might counterbalance the darkening and translucency effects of gelling, but it would not be the solution if the color of the mica morphed due to high temperature. The best way to figure all of this out is with test color blocks and test soaps, but even after a year of soap making, I've got a long way to go on that front.

On the ash issue, I mostly use 33% lye concentration or higher and typically don't get much ash, but recipe, temperature, trace level, fragrances, additives and other variables also affect the outcome. In my limited experience, it's not a simple relationship.

I have the summer crush mica also. It works beautifully in M&P but I haven't tried it in CP yet. I think this one is being discontinued, but from my research, the corals and oranges need to be used at a higher rate per pound. 1.5 - 2 tsp and Natures Soap have updated their advice to soap at lower temperatures. I added a link above to an article you might find helpful if you're going to try it again. Definitely helped me with my colour testing on oranges and corals.

I'm definitely way behind you in my experience of soap making, but I can see already that you're right to say it's not a simple relationship.

 

[Vickyn]

Hi all. Just want to say thank you for all your replies and help. My mica/ash problem, (I think) has been solved. Just unmolded my 3 little experiment batches and all have minimum or barely any ash now. I'm very happy with the results.