Cold Processed - Combination of NaOh and KOH

[Milashka]

Hello friends,
I wanted to ask if someone can give me an advice. I am trying to make 100% Olive Oil Soap and was told to try to use 95% of NaOH and 5% of KOH combination; it is supposed to get rid of sliminess in the final product. Anyhow, how am I supposed to add these two chemicals? Should I add first NaOH to my oil and after that KOH? Or there is another way? Thank you in advance!

 

[Susie]

You can just mix the dry NaOH and KOH into the water at the same time. I got the same outcome as when I did it all separately.

 

[DeeAnna]

What Susie said. Doesn't matter too much how you mix them.

The only issue is the water weight to make your lye solution must be at least equal to the total weight of NaOH + KOH. In other words, if you are using 120 g of NaOH and 10 g of KOH, then you must use at least 120 + 10 = 130 grams of water to make the lye solution. You can use more water if you like, but it doesn't work to use less -- the NaOH and KOH won't dissolve completely.

Are you using a calculator that can calculate the proper weight of the two alkalis for your recipe? Soapee.com is a good choice for that.

 

[Arimara]

I'd also play around with superfats with that experiment. I made 3 different batches and preferred the castile with a -40 superfat to the ones with 0% and 5% superfat. I could have been the oils and my climate but those two bars were horribly slimey whereas the first soap was not.

 

[DeeAnna]

The rest of Arimara's story is that the -40% superfat soap was also made with about 15% NaOH concentration -- in other words, much more water than normal. And it is a bit tricky to make. So if anyone wants to go that direction, please ask for help with this particular type of recipe. Most of us who experimented with the -40% superfat soap didn't see a great deal of difference in that soap versus one made with a "normal" recipe as far as the quality of lather and lack of slimy-ness, even after 2+ years of curing. So on that point, I respectfully disagree with Arimara.

I'm getting much more satisfactory results when making a high-oleic soap by using 5% KOH. All other parameters are typical for the soap I make, including a 3% superfat. Oleic soap with 5% KOH bubbles up faster and more freely, and has more fluffy bubbles as if you'd used some coconut. The lather and the soap bar itself still have that slick feel that is typical of an oleic soap, but the soap with a bit of KOH is more soluble in water, so you don't encounter the Jello-like "slime" that is typical of an oleic soap made with 100% NaOH.

 

[cmzaha]

I agree with DeeAnna, with the -40 the water amount seems to be the key, when everyone was experimenting with the -40 I tried a batch with the default of 38 water to oil. I don't remember what year we did that but I think it was 2 yrs ago and they still zaps. I much prefer a 1% superfat in 100% olive oil soap

 

[FNG]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried 10% KOH and compared it to 5% KOH? I've seen both numbers used with reports of similar results but I haven't seen any information on the difference (or any reported threshold for KOH percentage where see the bar get too soft and/or diminished returns). :think:

 

[Dahila]

what about hybrid 50/50 Had anyone tried it?

 

[kchaystack]

what about hybrid 50/50 Had anyone tried it?

I think I remember Deeanna talking about the ratio of NaOH to KOH and she felt just 5% KOH was a sweet spot.

Too much KOH is going to make it too soft, like liquid soap paste.

search for dual lye castile and you can find Deeanna's original post on it.

 

[DeeAnna]

FNG -- No, I have not tried 10% KOH. I'm getting good results at 5% so haven't had too much interest in 10%. I think 10% would work fine -- just haven't tried it to know for sure.

Dahlia -- do you mean 50% KOH? If so, I haven't made an oleic soap with that, but I and others have made shave soaps with the KOH percentage in that range. I'm not sure I would go that far with a bath soap -- I'm reasonably certain that much KOH is going to make the bar pliable and softer.

KC beat me to the punch on these answers! Hiya!

 

[kchaystack]

KC beat me to the punch on these answers! Hiya!

You can tell I am having a slow day at work

 

[Arimara]

The rest of Arimara's story is that the -40% superfat soap was also made with about 15% NaOH concentration -- in other words, much more water than normal. And it is a bit tricky to make. So if anyone wants to go that direction, please ask for help with this particular type of recipe. Most of us who experimented with the -40% superfat soap didn't see a great deal of difference in that soap versus one made with a "normal" recipe as far as the quality of lather and lack of slimy-ness, even after 2+ years of curing. So on that point, I respectfully disagree with Arimara.

I'm getting much more satisfactory results when making a high-oleic soap by using 5% KOH. All other parameters are typical for the soap I make, including a 3% superfat. Oleic soap with 5% KOH bubbles up faster and more freely, and has more fluffy bubbles as if you'd used some coconut. The lather and the soap bar itself still have that slick feel that is typical of an oleic soap, but the soap with a bit of KOH is more soluble in water, so you don't encounter the Jello-like "slime" that is typical of an oleic soap made with 100% NaOH.

I also said it may have been the oil I have used. Olive oil is known to have varying qualities and many of you tend to get yours from Costco's at the least, if not a soapcraft supplier. I bought mine from a grocery store nearby and I'd hate to even comment on how long it might have been there. You have consistency in your belt whereas, because it is NOT easy for me to go to Costco or BJ's without a car, I used an inferior means as far as quality goes.

I'm convinced that it works but I want to caution as well that where you get your olive oil counts too. Mine have already developed DOS, even my unscented castiles that were made with the same oil.

By the way, please correct my math but 2.34oz of water for 1.44 oz of NaOH and .12oz of KOH = a 15% concentration of what? I'm confused and I used 8oz of oil by the way.

 

[Milashka]

Thank you

What Susie said. Doesn't matter too much how you mix them.

The only issue is the water weight to make your lye solution must be at least equal to the total weight of NaOH + KOH. In other words, if you are using 120 g of NaOH and 10 g of KOH, then you must use at least 120 + 10 = 130 grams of water to make the lye solution. You can use more water if you like, but it doesn't work to use less -- the NaOH and KOH won't dissolve completely.

Are you using a calculator that can calculate the proper weight of the two alkalis for your recipe? Soapee.com is a good choice for that.

Thank you for your advice. Tomorrow, I will try my batch and let you know the results.

 

[DeeAnna]

I'm responding only to what you've shared in this thread, Arimara, and I imagine others are not going back to other discussions about this soap either. I'm glad you're bringing the pertinent information from other threads into this one to better explain your point of view.

By 15% lye concentration, I meant this:
100 g of lye solution would contain 15 g of NaOH and 100-15= 85 g of water

That is the approximate lye concentration that most of us were using for the -40% castile experiment, give or take a bit. I don't recall anything about your particular experiments, so I don't have any opinion on your math or your recipe -- I'm only sharing the lye concentration that most of us were using for that particular recipe.

A huge -40% superfat and a "normal" amount of water (such as full water, aka 28% lye concentration) will not produce a soap that is skin safe -- it will remain lye heavy. Carolyn's experiment (see above) showed that. The unusual amount of water (15% lye concentration) in the -40% superfat soap is the key factor that helps the large amount of excess lye to dissipate.

 

[Dahila]

DeaAnna yes I meant 50/50 and wanted to know your opinion ladies and gents. I had read the post for 95% Naoh and 5 Koh, but still wonder how to get the right amount in SM3 or soapee the right amount of lye. Should I use the calculation for lye only then replace 5 % of it with KOH? Thank you so much

 

[kchaystack]

DeaAnna yes I meant 50/50 and wanted to know your opinion ladies and gents. I had read the post for 95% Naoh and 5 Koh, but still wonder how to get the right amount in SM3 or soapee the right amount of lye. Should I use the calculation for lye only then replace 5 % of it with KOH? Thank you so much

I think you will want to use a calculator designed for dual lye.

Soapee.com makes it pretty easy.

 

[Dahila]

I think you will want to use a calculator designed for dual lye.

Soapee.com makes it pretty easy.

I tried to do it on soapee but It did not work will try again
thank you so much

 

[DeeAnna]

"... Should I use the calculation for lye only then replace 5 % of it with KOH?..."

No, that isn't going to be correct -- please don't do that.

Short answer: Use http://soapee.com/calculator and choose a "hybrid soap" and enter the percentages of KOH and NaOH that you want in the boxes that appear.

Long answer: See http://classicbells.com/soap/dualLye.html and then use http://soapee.com/calculator

 

[Dahila]

I got mental block yesterday I went back and changed it, 95% lye 5% KOH
Thank you K and Deeanna I already got it, I had lowered OO to 55 and add palm oil. it is a soap which will be for my muslim customers so not lard or tallow. More and more of them want my products, I am going to add Coconut milk too, I love it in soaps thank you for unblocking me ) you all are cool , and helpful people

 

[Arimara]

I'm responding only to what you've shared in this thread, Arimara, and I imagine others are not going back to other discussions about this soap either. I'm glad you're bringing the pertinent information from other threads into this one to better explain your point of view.

By 15% lye concentration, I meant this:
100 g of lye solution would contain 15 g of NaOH and 100-15= 85 g of water

That is the approximate lye concentration that most of us were using for the -40% castile experiment, give or take a bit. I don't recall anything about your particular experiments, so I don't have any opinion on your math or your recipe -- I'm only sharing the lye concentration that most of us were using for that particular recipe.

A huge -40% superfat and a "normal" amount of water (such as full water, aka 28% lye concentration) will not produce a soap that is skin safe -- it will remain lye heavy. Carolyn's experiment (see above) showed that. The unusual amount of water (15% lye concentration) in the -40% superfat soap is the key factor that helps the large amount of excess lye to dissipate.

Thanks for clarifying and I didn't mean to offend or impose. Sorry this is a day late. I've been a little busy and hopefully I'll be able to have a breather in a few weeks. Literally and figuratively.