Doubtful. You can't use fresh chives, they will rot. You might be able to use a distillation as your water portion and you might be able to use it in powdered form for coloration and maybe as an exfoliant.
Chives in Soap?
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Doubtful. You can't use fresh chives, they will rot. You might be able to use a distillation as your water portion and you might be able to use it in powdered form for coloration and maybe as an exfoliant.
Another concern is that the chive smell is not something I’d want on me - not from soap, and definitely not from lotion. I’m guessing most people would feel the same.
Agreed. It does seem like an odd additive for soap or lotion. I use thyme, rosemary and other herbs, but I don't think the oniony smell of chives would appeal to most people.
MooMac
Active Member
I see! I'm curious, how would adding ingredients during a re-melt and pour do? Could you retain some of their non-mechanical qualities then?
MooMac
Active Member
I'm not as interested in the smell as I am the components in chives. But I also think that slightly pungent smells or strong smells can accent other scents when added as a small note. I haven't experimented with it yet so I'm not sure.
I can agree to a certain extent, but not onion (chive) smell, nor would I put garlic in soap. But hey, I'm not one who is bothered by neem, whereas many are. Different strokes, and you do you.
MooMac
Active Member
Haha I'll let everyone know if for some reason people are now distancing 12 feet instead of 6 feet when I'm aroundI can agree to a certain extent, but not onion (chive) smell, nor would I put garlic in soap. But hey, I'm not one who is bothered by neem, whereas many are. Different strokes, and you do you.
No...you can't add any 'fresh' ingredients. You have the same restrictions as with Cold or Hot Process and further restrictions, like adding milks and purees, because the saponification process has already been completed. You could add powdered or finely chopped dried chives as an exfoliant, but not as a colorant. I checked several soap suppliers to see if powders, oxides, pigments and/or clay were included in the colorants for M&P and they are not. Just Micas, Color Blocks and Lab Colors.
MooMac
Active Member
Ah because it's the saponification that makes milk and other ingredients into versions that won't spoil as easily, less reactive because it already reacts with the lye? So adding fresh ingredients after the soap is fully reacted would just have little bits of spoiled or rancid ingredients in it...is that right? How does one add fresh ingredients into lotions etc. then to preserve their properties but not spoil?
It's not just the lye binding to the oils, it's also heat created. Think of soap making like baking. So I make a Pumpkin Pie...pumpkin puree, eggs, milk; if I just leave it, it's going to spoiled, rancid, moldy mess. But apply XX heat for XX time, it changes the mixture into some very yummy. But even then...after a certain amount of time it's gong to turn into a spoiled, rancid, moldy mess.
Yep
By adding a preservative; there are lots of them out there and they are generally divided into water-based and oil-based. And yes, even if your product doesn't contain water, if there is a potential for water to be added to it, you want to add a preservative. And example of this would be a foot scrub that is used around the tub/shower.
The short answer is, you don't. At least not in large quantities. If you want to add anything botanical to a lotion formula, I would suggest you only use a paraben blend or a formaldehyde releaser as your preservative at the maximum safe percentage, because anything else will give you an unfeasibly short shelf life. Both of these types of preservatives are readily available to the home crafter. Parabens in particular are my personal choice due to the fact that they are unparalleled in their safety and efficacy. We literally have 100 years of data on their use and none of that data backs up the recent claim that they are unsafe.
Do not use a so-called "natural" preservative because it will not be strong enough to preserve botanicals unless you use massive amounts, which increases the risk of negative reactions due to large amounts of preservatives.
In case you don't already know, grapefruit seed extract, rosemary oleoresin, and vitamin E are not preservatives. Vitamin E and rosemary oleoresin are antioxidants only and aren't even necessary for all oils. The nature of grapefruit seed extract requires preservatives added to it after extraction, and it is these preservatives that are responsible for any antimicrobial activity attributed to it.
MooMac
Active Member
Thank you, this makes a lot of sense
MooMac
Active Member
I see. What about the supposed natural antimicrobial and antioxidant properties of ginger, turmeric, onions, garlic, cocoa, honey, cinnamon etc.? Not strong enough to make the self life of a product extent into a reasonable amount for production?
Now we have come full circle when I said on the first page: "2) Sodium Hydroxide is a caustic substance and it, along with the process of saponification, which changes the oils and butters into soap, destroys the majority of any benefit that may be in the ingredients."
And fair warning about cinnamon...NOT something you want on your lady bits (or man bits either).
Soap, by its nature, kills germs. It's why handwashing is so effective. It doesn't matter if the soap is made from lard or tallow, olive oil or coconut or some exotic oil hand pressed by sky-clad virgin during the blue moon of the second Tuesday of the week.
Most of the stuff that is added to soap, and I speak as someone who makes Goat Milk Soap and who adds Kaolin Clay religiously to every soap I make, does it really make for a 'better' bar of soap than if I didn't use...not really. I use fresh goat milk from a farm. Is is 'better' than powdered Goat Milk, is it better that store bought Goat Milk, is it better than evaporated (canned) Goat Milk. No. No. Yes...but only as far as color is concerned. And yeah, I use Cocoa in my Chocolate Espresso soap...it makes for a nice 'mica line' and looks pretty sprinkled on top.
There are quite a few soap makers that add a lot of extra stuff to their soap...goat milk powder, buttermilk powder, coconut cream, tussah silk, sugar, salt, honey, aloe vera, colloidal oats, various purees, extracts, powders and clays...a lot of it is 'label appeal', but adds to real 'value' to the soap...it's still soap. Sure Turmeric has a lot of nutritional and medicinal properties, but you don't eat soap...which is why it is strictly used as a natural colorant. It's the same with Bee Pollen, Beet Root, Tomato, Pumpkin, Rosehip, Spinach, etc.
I know this is a long post, but it is very important information for what you're trying to do so please read it and consider.
In soap, those things are fine, if fresh ingredients are dried first. But don't use cinnamon, which can be irritating on skin. I wouldn't use that in soap anyway, especially the essential oil which will give you soap-on-a-stick lickety split.
However, all of those things, in lotion, will require stronger preservatives to prevent them inviting germs into your lotion. Some of those thing you list can only be used in very small quantities because germs looooove eating those things. For example, yeast loves to eat honey, which is how mead is made. You do not want yeast in your lotion. Honey only lasts indefinitely if there is not enough water in it for things to grow. Lotion absolutely has enough water in it (60-80%) for all kinds of germs to thrive. And so, if you put honey in lotion, you need to add a preservative that is effective against yeast, and against whatever else likes to eat honey. Same for the others.
Some of the things you list are basically vegetables. Some vegetables will last a little longer in storage than others, and I believe it is this feature you are referring to as "antimicrobial". But, they don't preserve things you add them to, they only preserve themselves (some veggies and fruits actually contain a small amount of naturally occurring parabens). But, they will never ever preserve themselves for the length of time you'd need them to in a lotion, even if they did preserve things you add them to. If you put the things you list in a container on your kitchen countertop, they will get moldy and rot in a matter of days or weeks, certainly not the 1 year+ you'd need in a lotion. If you are using a dried version, put some in a jar of water (to simulate being in a lotion) and watch it still get moldy. If you put them in a lotion without a preservative, they will get moldy. Even worse, bacteria will grow in it and that is much, much harder to detect without sending it to a lab for testing. Bacteria in lotion can make you very sick. A good preservative can keep your lotion good for about a year. A lotion with a lot of botanical ingredients like the ones you list, probably less than a year but still long enough to use it up before it went bad.
Some things only have antimicrobial properties under very specific circumstances. Take Tea Tree essential oil for instance. If you use it neat, it can kill some types of germs. But once you dilute it into lotion at customary usage percentages, its antimicrobial activity is completely negated and will actually accelerate the growth of microorganisms, necessitating the use of preservatives. I don't know why it works like that but it has been laboratory verified. All the things you list, will not preserve anything but rather require something to preserve them.
I know this probably is not what you want to hear, but it is what it is. You need to be well equipped with the facts before you make lotions, so that you can make a safe product. Safety is above all. What good is a lotion that ends up giving you a severe skin infection?
Out of curiosity, what skin benefits do you believe there are in plants from the Allium family? When I cook with the stuff, I can't wait to get it off my hands when I'm done chopping.
No they're not effective preservatives or antioxidants for bath and body products. If any of these ingredients was truly an effective preservative for this purpose, you would find it on various lists of effective preservatives. None are. Here's a resource to help you learn about this issue -- Preservative Reviews
Antioxidants that function well for humans aren't necessarily antioxidants that effectively protect fats from oxidation and rancidity. For example, polyunsaturated oils often have high levels of tocopherols (vitamin E), which is a useful antioxidant in the human diet, but thse fats usually have short shelf lives. The tocopherols naturally found in these fats obviously don't do a good job of protecting these fats from rancidity ... but roesmary oleoresin (ROE) does.
Honey is self preserving ONLY if it is NOT DILUTED with anything else -- it HAS to contain no more than about 18% water content to be self preserving. If you add more water to honey to dilute the sugars, the honey will happily grow mold or bacteria or ferment; that's how we get mead (honey wine). Honey has no intrinsic "preservative magic" due to it's being made by bees. Any sugar solution is self preserving if it is sufficiently concentrated -- it's the high concentration of sugars that is the self preserving feature. Salts do the same thing -- concentrated salt preserves stuff; a little salt does not. A property called "water activity" is the principle here.
MooMac
Active Member
Thank you very much, I can feel that I need to shift my perspective on soap now but I understand more as well. I appreciate you taking the time!
MooMac
Active Member
This has definitely opened my eyes. I was under the impression that foods which are shown to boost immunity, decrease inflammation, and in general help against oxidation and negative microbes when consumed would do similarly when mixed and applied to the skin. A basic assumption that I can see now does not line up with the complexity involved. I assumed many manufacturers did not use such ingredients because of price, but as there would be a market I see it has more to do with viability as well. I appreciate the explanation, thank you
MooMac
Active Member
Ahh, thank you very much. I will be reviewing these lists and looking into the water activity principle. I never knew why these high concentrations had these effects! I have a lot of research to do, thank you
It's no problem at all. There is more than plenty of soap to go around, so it defeats the purpose of not encouraging or providing you with the information you need to be the best that you can be.
Yes, no, maybe. Soap...no; it's simply not on the skin long enough...along with the whole caustic soda and saponification. And while lotions are a leave-on products thus you can get the benefit, you also have to remember that they are also 70%-80% water which means that the benefit has been by 70%-80%...actually more because there are other other ingredients. To take @DeeAnna's example of honey just a step further...we know that honey has anti-oxidant, anti-bacterial and anti-inflammatory properties. It can be put on wounds to promote rapid and improved healing...my Grandma used it all the time. But if I add a bunch of water to it, the only thing it's good for is sweet tea.
And there is a big difference between ingesting something, and putting it on your skin. Our skin is composed of three layers...the Epidermis, Dermis and Subcutaneous Layer. Pretty much everyone we put on our skin never makes it past the Epidermis and that is because the Epidermis is a natural barrier. It's what protects us against germs and other nasties, it's why washing our hands with soap and water is so beneficial. Orange Juice contains a ton of Vitamin C, but even if I fill the tub with it and soak in it for three hours, I will not get any benefit. I need to actually ingest it.
