Casual Soaper about to get Serious Recipe Advice

[kasandrashy]

Hello my name is Kasandra and I have soaped as a hobby off and on for about 10 years now. I really began researching and understanding cold process about 4-5 years ago when I wanted to make my own recipe. That recipe is great and I have been using it with great luck adjusting only whether I use Shea or cocoa butter. I want to step it up a notch lately. I plan to purchase some other pricier ingredients in bulk and try a go at selling some. I plan to make it in about 30 days and send pretty much everyone I know samples so by summer I have feedback and a batch of cured soap to take to my local farmers market.
This idea has been stewing in my head for a long time (since before I made my first recipe 4years ago)
The things I’m concerned about in my recipe my INS number is low on soap calc although within range at 36 and my iodine is high at 66. Mainly I’m worried about DOS with the iodine and my linoleic acid at 11 which is a little high I think.
Tbh I never researched the INS number or paid it any attention until the last month or so. I used soap calc back when I made my recipe 4 years ago and if I adjust it I use it mostly for the Sodium Hydroxide content. I’ve never had anyone tell me their soap has spoilt and none I’ve used ever has. I have had some messed up batches but Never DOS. So I typed in my old regular recipe and the numbers are very similar although the INS is slightly higher and Iodine slightly lower with the linoleic acid at only a 2.

soooo sorry for being so long winded. Can you check out my new recipe idea and give me feed back about these possible problems and anything else you notice?

Olive oil 34%
Coconut oil 18%
Cocoa butter 16%
Shea butter 8%
Castor oil 8%
Camellia seed oil 8%
Hempseed oil 8%

Thanks for the feedback this is a bit of an investment so I thought I needed some real feed back and no one I know irl soaps, except my bf but I taught him.

so the things I’ve added here are the Camellia seed oil and hemp seed oil this is replacing some sweet almond oil and olive oil from my old recipe. Also using both Shea and Cocoa as I’ve found over the years when I use just one I always wish I had a little of the other in it. I have increased the butters by 4% which I have done in the past and enjoyed as long as it was more cocoa. I am doing test batches but your feedback will help me decide if I should change my test batch recipe .... so nervous and excited guys

 

[artemis]

If you like your recipe and it has been working well for you, why do you want to change it?

 

[lsg]

I am wondering why you are using both shea and cocoa butters. I usually use only one butter at about 15%.

 

[amd]

I am wondering why you are using both shea and cocoa butters. I usually use only one butter at about 15%.

I use both - shea at 15% and cocoa butter at 5%. It gives the soap a nice feel as well as adding some hardness. When I only used shea at 15% without CB, the soap was a bit softer than I liked. I reduced the shea but I didn't like the feel as much. If the OP likes both, then why can't she use both?

 

[kasandrashy]

I am wondering why you are using both shea and cocoa butters. I usually use only one butter at about 15%.

J I use both for exactly the reason user amd said above! As you can see I make a pretty soft soap too so I thought increasing the CB would help too!

If you like your recipe and it has been working well for you, why do you want to change it?

Part boredom and part researching about ingredients. When I made the other recipe I didn’t know as much about the oils and now that I’m older my skin has also gotten even drier and I would like a recipe slightly more hydrating!

 

[amd]

my skin has also gotten even drier and I would like a recipe slightly more hydrating!

I have really dry skin (flaky and dry even in the summer!) and my skin does really well with this recipe, rarely have to use lotion in the summer, and sporadically through the winter depending on how cold/dry it is here on the frozen prairie.
30-35% liquid oil *
25% tallow
15-20% CO *
15% shea butter
5% cocoa butter
5% castor oil

* For liquid oil I use Olive Oil or Rice Bran, mostly RBO for the last year and a half due to the cost of OO, and I think my skin actually does better with RBO. The amount on the liquid oil and CO fluctuates a bit depending on how dry your skin is - CO in soap tends to be more cleansing - I have done 20% and been comfortable in my own skin, but most of my soaps are 16 or 18%. So if I use 16% CO, then I add the remainder % to the liquid oil.

Side note: you can also use lard or palm in place of the tallow and makes a very nice soap too. I just tried it with palm in September, and the soap was nice after a 4 week cure. I'm age testing my bars to see how well the tallow/palm replacements work for soap aging (performance and not developing DOS).

 

[kasandrashy]

I have really dry skin (flaky and dry even in the summer!) and my skin does really well with this recipe, rarely have to use lotion in the summer, and sporadically through the winter depending on how cold/dry it is here on the frozen prairie.
30-35% liquid oil *
25% tallow
15-20% CO *
15% shea butter
5% cocoa butter
5% castor oil

* For liquid oil I use Olive Oil or Rice Bran, mostly RBO for the last year and a half due to the cost of OO, and I think my skin actually does better with RBO. The amount on the liquid oil and CO fluctuates a bit depending on how dry your skin is - CO in soap tends to be more cleansing - I have done 20% and been comfortable in my own skin, but most of my soaps are 16 or 18%. So if I use 16% CO, then I add the remainder % to the liquid oil.

Side note: you can also use lard or palm in place of the tallow and makes a very nice soap too. I just tried it with palm in September, and the soap was nice after a 4 week cure. I'm age testing my bars to see how well the tallow/palm replacements work for soap aging (performance and not developing DOS).

I think your recipe sounds so good for the skin and I’m glad it works well for you! Unfortuantely, I don’t use animal products or palm oil in my soaps. Thank you for the idea though!

 

[amd]

I don’t want to use animal products or palm oil in my soaps.

In August/September I did three variations of my basic soap recipe:
Soap 1: 25% palm
Soap 2: 25% oil blend that mimics the fatty acid profile of lard (contains palm)
Soap 3: 25% oil blend that mimics the fatty acid profile of lard with an oil blend that mimics the fatty acid profile of palm used in the blend.

Soap 3 will probably interest you as it contains no palm or animal fat - I designed this experiment to see if I could make a vegan soap with the same or close to fatty acid profile as my regular recipe, hoping to get a soap that has the same shelf life (I sell) and performance. My first use with these soaps (at about 4-5 weeks cure) I liked Soap 1 and Soap 3 the best. I'll be doing another shower test with these 3 bars sometime this month to see how they've changed with a bit of age, but for the moment all three seem to be aging well, no signs of DOS. Anyways, I'll check my notes when I get home tonight and post the recipe here. If I remember correctly it wound up being kind of a convoluted recipe with subbing in part of a blend with another blend, but I managed to get all the percentages figured out into a straight formula.

 

[kasandrashy]

In August/September I did three variations of my basic soap recipe:
Soap 1: 25% palm
Soap 2: 25% oil blend that mimics the fatty acid profile of lard (contains palm)
Soap 3: 25% oil blend that mimics the fatty acid profile of lard with an oil blend that mimics the fatty acid profile of palm used in the blend.

Soap 3 will probably interest you as it contains no palm or animal fat - I designed this experiment to see if I could make a vegan soap with the same or close to fatty acid profile as my regular recipe, hoping to get a soap that has the same shelf life (I sell) and performance. My first use with these soaps (at about 4-5 weeks cure) I liked Soap 1 and Soap 3 the best. I'll be doing another shower test with these 3 bars sometime this month to see how they've changed with a bit of age, but for the moment all three seem to be aging well, no signs of DOS. Anyways, I'll check my notes when I get home tonight and post the recipe here. If I remember correctly it wound up being kind of a convoluted recipe with subbing in part of a blend with another blend, but I managed to get all the percentages figured out into a straight formula.

Oh Please update here about how they’re doing! If you have your notes and would like to post that recipe I might Like to try it!

 

[Arimara]

I am wondering why you are using both shea and cocoa butters. I usually use only one butter at about 15%.

I've actually done that before When you keep those two in a combined range between 20-30% tops, you can make nice soap out of it. It made up for my not using palm oil.

 

[lsg]

I use both - shea at 15% and cocoa butter at 5%. It gives the soap a nice feel as well as adding some hardness. When I only used shea at 15% without CB, the soap was a bit softer than I liked. I reduced the shea but I didn't like the feel as much. If the OP likes both, then why can't she use both?

There is no reason that the OP shouldn't use what they like. I was just curious.

 

[Gaisy59]

Yes please amd i am very interested as well. I do have very dry skin as well and have been trying to get my soap down to something my skin can handle.

 

[TheGecko]

That recipe is great and I have been using it with great luck adjusting only whether I use Shea or cocoa butter. I want to step it up a notch lately. I plan to purchase some other pricier ingredients in bulk and try a go at selling some. I plan to make it in about 30 days and send pretty much everyone I know samples so by summer I have feedback and a batch of cured soap to take to my local farmers market.

We just had a discussion about the 'benefits' of ingredients beyond providing a well-balanced bar of quality soap, because soap is a wash on/rinse off product. My conclusion was to save the pricer ingredients for stuff that stays on your skin (or hair) for longer than five minutes. Of course there is 'label appeal', but those are niche markets and can heavily fluctuate depending on trends and then what...you're left with with expensive ingredients no one is interested in.

I have two recipes...one for a Regular Soap and one for a Goat Milk Soap, and I have a developed a line of stock soaps based on those recipes. Stock soaps are just that...soaps that folks can always count on and form the base of my business. Using on my Regular Soap recipe I have some 'fancy' soaps (ITP swirls, drops swirls, hanger swirls) and some 'seasonal' soaps around the month, season or holiday.

Soaps I am developing:

- A 'luxury' soap...small batches, very limited; these will be 'spoil me" soaps or "I want to get in your pants" soaps. I already that the recipe and design...it's the packaging, it has to be decadent too.

- A 'foot' soap...I love my pedicure, but I can't afford to go every week, even if I had the time.

- A 'trades' soap...one that removes tough grease and dirt, but doesn't dry out the hands like Lava or that 'orange' stuff or leave an unpleasant smell. And a soap for those who work in kitchen...my youngest was a chef and hated how his hands smelled at the end of the night no matter how much he washed and then they were so dry.

- A 'masculine' soap...while I already have a couple that a very popular with men, I will like to come up with a line just for them. It's tricky finding that balance between look and scent.

 

[cmzaha]

I personally would nix the hempseed and Camellia, hempseed lends to DOS and softness, Camellia is expensive and really lends nothing to soap.
I personally would replace the above with Avocado and even split some to the OO with Avo. Avo actually produces a rock hard soap although adds no lather. As you delve deeper into selling you may just re-think the palm issue. I do use shea in some soaps because I am able to Please do more research into the issue and realize this is the only industry that many families have to depend on to feed their children and families. We read horror stories and jump on bandwagons. Maybe research the back-breaking work shea butter production is... Just saying, not trying to start any type of big litigation about it. We all have choices.

Your soap once you add in packaging, labeling, time, colorants additives, seller costs, and the most expensive soap ingredient, the fragrance is going to make very little profit per bar.

 

[amd]

@kasandrashy and @Gaisy59
Here is the recipe for my experimental Soap 3: (Plugged into Soap Calc as a 500g batch just to show the characteristics)

And to give credit where credit is due, forum member @IrishLass created the two blends that I used.
Blend #1 IrishLass's Lard Replacement: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/replace-lard.60723/#post-608370
Blend #2 IrishLass's Palm Replacement: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/palm-oil.74906/#post-767237
It took me a bit of finagling with Soap Calc to figure out the total amounts, but the recipe above is the total amounts with all the blends factored in. (Gosh I hope that makes sense!)

You can see it compares pretty closely to my original formula as far as fatty acid profile, a few differences in soap bar quality:

The only problem I had with this recipe was that my FO seized horribly. I will caution that my original recipe (second posted) traces very quickly - I've found the best way to work with it is to whisk the melted oils and lye together by hand and use very minimal stick blending. This recipe also does well with high water (I used 25% lye concentration for 3 years with this recipe and the bars didn't warp, even after they were 12+ months old). I really can't speak for the experimental recipe as it's only a few months old. I did make it with 30% lye concentration to see how they age (if the bars warp) but it will be difficult to tell because the soap was literally smooshed into the mold and the bars already look like hell.

And yes, before anyone suggests that the recipe was the seizing culprit, I added a new to me FO after light trace so that I could see how the recipe itself performs with the lye. The supplier no longer makes this FO, so I couldn't go back and check the reviews or comments. Note to self: only make experimental soaps with known FO's...

 

[Gaisy59]

@kasandrashy and @Gaisy59
Here is the recipe for my experimental Soap 3: (Plugged into Soap Calc as a 500g batch just to show the characteristics)
View attachment 43280

And to give credit where credit is due, forum member @IrishLass created the two blends that I used.
Blend #1 IrishLass's Lard Replacement: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/replace-lard.60723/#post-608370
Blend #2 IrishLass's Palm Replacement: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/palm-oil.74906/#post-767237
It took me a bit of finagling with Soap Calc to figure out the total amounts, but the recipe above is the total amounts with all the blends factored in. (Gosh I hope that makes sense!)

You can see it compares pretty closely to my original formula as far as fatty acid profile, a few differences in soap bar quality:
View attachment 43281

The only problem I had with this recipe was that my FO seized horribly. I will caution that my original recipe (second posted) traces very quickly - I've found the best way to work with it is to whisk the melted oils and lye together by hand and use very minimal stick blending. This recipe also does well with high water (I used 25% lye concentration for 3 years with this recipe and the bars didn't warp, even after they were 12+ months old). I really can't speak for the experimental recipe as it's only a few months old. I did make it with 30% lye concentration to see how they age (if the bars warp) but it will be difficult to tell because the soap was literally smooshed into the mold and the bars already look like hell.

And yes, before anyone suggests that the recipe was the seizing culprit, I added a new to me FO after light trace so that I could see how the recipe itself performs with the lye. The supplier no longer makes this FO, so I couldn't go back and check the reviews or comments. Note to self: only make experimental soaps with known FO's...

Thank you sooo much. I do work with lard but i am excited to be able to try something vegan! My next batch will be your vegan batch.

 

[amd]

I do work with lard

My original recipe I used to make with lard and it's lovely - I switched to tallow because I have a super sensitive nose and could smell it even in fragranced soaps. I don't seem to notice the tallow smell as much. Tallow is a bit more cleansing and I could tell a slight difference, but not enough to make any changes to the recipe.

 

[kasandrashy]

As you delve deeper into selling you may just re-think the palm issue. I do use shea in some soaps because I am able to Please do more research into the issue and realize this is the only industry that many families have to depend on to feed their children and families. We read horror stories and jump on bandwagons. Maybe research the back-breaking work shea butter production is... Just saying, not trying to start any type of big litigation about it. We all have choices.

Hi I was wondering if you could elaborate on the Shea Butter industry or what you meant please.

My goal for my soap is to be vegan, sustainably sourced with eco-conscious packaging and practices and using organic ingredients.

As someone with sensitive Dry skin I also aim to create a soap that delivers hydration while still maintaining cleansing power.

Hemp is a very sustainable crop that is currently being produced for many applications and will continue to expand production over the next decade so for me that’s a no brainer but only if I can use it without the DOS problems so thank you for that information. Definitely need to test out the concentration.

I know of the school of thought that because soap is a wash off product and also because of the Saponification process it doesn’t deliver as much of the benefits as an ingredient would in a product such as a lotion or mask. That of course is true but there are some ingredients that will give more benefits than others.

It is my understanding that due to the molecular weight of camellia oil it absorbs into the skin very quickly which means that your skin can actually benefit from its ingredients which are:
Omega 9s, antioxidants, plant collagen, vitamin E and polyphenols. It’s much like coconut oil in the way it is absorbed into the skin quickly except it leave less residue and is moisturizing rather than drying.

Incase you’re wondering why I don’t use palm oil it is because Palm oil is not a sustainable product it contributes to degradation of peatlands, rainforests and natural habitats around the globe. It also accounts for about 8% of total global greenhouse gas emissions. I just don’t want to own a company that contributes to that industry.
Thanks to everyone for the information! I welcome more responses and am happy to learn as I hope I can spread good information too!

@kasandrashy and @Gaisy59
Here is the recipe for my experimental Soap 3: (Plugged into Soap Calc as a 500g batch just to show the characteristics)
View attachment 43280

And to give credit where credit is due, forum member @IrishLass created the two blends that I used.
Blend #1 IrishLass's Lard Replacement: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/replace-lard.60723/#post-608370
Blend #2 IrishLass's Palm Replacement: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/palm-oil.74906/#post-767237
It took me a bit of finagling with Soap Calc to figure out the total amounts, but the recipe above is the total amounts with all the blends factored in. (Gosh I hope that makes sense!)

You can see it compares pretty closely to my original formula as far as fatty acid profile, a few differences in soap bar quality:
View attachment 43281

my browser is not loading my last comment so not sure if I am double posting this question, I have never used that much butter in my recipes and I had thought about doing it but just assumed it would mess with the bar quality. How do you like it with that solid content? Also I have never used bran oil, please elaborate on why you use it and what you like about it if it’s not too much trouble. Thanks for all the information!

 

[amd]

my browser is not loading my last comment so not sure if I am double posting this question, I have never used that much butter in my recipes and I had thought about doing it but just assumed it would mess with the bar quality. How do you like it with that solid content?

It doesn't. I know there are some on the forum who don't recommend going over a certain percentage. I think there is a point where there is too much butter due to the unsaponifiables typically found in butters, but I haven't found it yet. There's also a thought that butter will kill soap lather, but I also haven't found that to be true. This particular soap lathers beautifully. If I can figure out how to wash my hands and take a picture at the same time, I'll share it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I briefly shower tested this soap when it was freshly cured (probably around the 6 week mark). From the batch I made I have two end cuts (approx 1 oz each) and 4 bars. I used one end cut for my first shower test and it lasted the longest of the three experiments. I pulled my other set of endcuts this week to do another shower test, as it's been close to three months since the last shower test. The first shower test gave me the impression that this is close to my original recipe, so we'll see how it ages. My plan is to test these every few months to see how they change as they age - or if they develop DOS in less than a year. DOS is my next concern after performance.

Also I have never used bran oil, please elaborate on why you use it and what you like about it if it’s not too much trouble.

The first motivation for using it was replacement for Olive Oil. The price of Olive Oil had increased and I had to make a decision to either increase my prices to my customers, or make a recipe change. When I first started selling, I made many test batches with recipe tweaks and tucked them away so I could see how they aged, if they developed DOS over time. So I pulled out my box and happened to have a bar that I had replaced OO with RBO. It was 3 years old and no DOS, so I made the switch. The only difference I can tell is that my soap doesn't feel "greasy" I don't know how to explain it. There's an emollient feeling when using OO soap that isn't there in the RBO soap. This could be my mind playing tricks with me, as my husband and my daughter couldn't feel this difference and told me the soaps were the same - which the customers that I asked agreed with. Side note: RBO is cheaper, but my customers told me it sounded more "exotic", whatever that's worth, lol.

Sorry for the novel... I tend to overwrite to make sure my meaning is clear.

 

[kasandrashy]

It doesn't. I know there are some on the forum who don't recommend going over a certain percentage. I think there is a point where there is too much butter due to the unsaponifiables typically found in butters, but I haven't found it yet. There's also a thought that butter will kill soap lather, but I also haven't found that to be true. This particular soap lathers beautifully. If I can figure out how to wash my hands and take a picture at the same time, I'll share it.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I briefly shower tested this soap when it was freshly cured (probably around the 6 week mark). From the batch I made I have two end cuts (approx 1 oz each) and 4 bars. I used one end cut for my first shower test and it lasted the longest of the three experiments. I pulled my other set of endcuts this week to do another shower test, as it's been close to three months since the last shower test. The first shower test gave me the impression that this is close to my original recipe, so we'll see how it ages. My plan is to test these every few months to see how they change as they age - or if they develop DOS in less than a year. DOS is my next concern after performance.


The first motivation for using it was replacement for Olive Oil. The price of Olive Oil had increased and I had to make a decision to either increase my prices to my customers, or make a recipe change. When I first started selling, I made many test batches with recipe tweaks and tucked them away so I could see how they aged, if they developed DOS over time. So I pulled out my box and happened to have a bar that I had replaced OO with RBO. It was 3 years old and no DOS, so I made the switch. The only difference I can tell is that my soap doesn't feel "greasy" I don't know how to explain it. There's an emollient feeling when using OO soap that isn't there in the RBO soap. This could be my mind playing tricks with me, as my husband and my daughter couldn't feel this difference and told me the soaps were the same - which the customers that I asked agreed with. Side note: RBO is cheaper, but my customers told me it sounded more "exotic", whatever that's worth, lol.

Sorry for the novel... I tend to overwrite to make sure my meaning is clear.

Thanks for the great info! And I’m the same way with long explanations. I think I will make a soap that’s butter heavy and see how it goes!