Can I get your opinions on this recipe please?

[shshimo]

I'm pretty new to soap making and, well, these are the ingredients I was able to procure in my area. I would actually prefer not to use any sort of palm really, and we're vegetarian so animal ingredients are out. But it seems nearly impossible to get a hard, hard bar of soap without palm or lard/tallow. Am I correct? Which explains why I am adding beeswax and stearic acid to this recipe. Anyway, enough babbling. I would love to hear your feedback!

Oh, would it also be crazy to have a water lye ratio of 2:1 when making this, or am I playing with fire and my soap will seize?

%
Olive Oil pomace 60
Coconut Oil, 76 deg 15
Crisco, new w/palm 10
Avocado Oil 3
Castor Oil 5
Stearic Acid 2
Beeswax 3
Shea Butter 2
Totals 100
SF 5%

 

[Seifenblasen]

You may want to check out some palm-free recipes (a few have animal fats, but most don't):

http://www.lovinsoap.com/category/palm- ... e-soaping/

That is a rather steep water discount, but the temperature you soap, and any other additives (such as fragrance oils or essential oils) all play a part in whether the soap will seize or not. The thing is, while initially a higher water discount will make a harder bar, the final result, after curing, has more to do with the kind of oil you use than how much water you soap with.

After a long cure, 100% olive oil bars are actually very hard, but you have to patient!

 

[shshimo]

That's the problem (lol) I'm not patient!

I forgot to mention what characteristics I'm looking for, essentially hardness, bubbly and creamy (so about 50-50 with the latter two). The last 3 batches I've made were all in the 28-30 hardness range. And all are still imprintable with my fingers, although it's been about 3-4 weeks. The one I did the water discount on is the hardest right now, unsurprisingly.

I'll check out that website.

 

[Yooper]

You can make a very hard bubbly bar with coconut oil, so you don't have to use palm or tallow if you don't care too.

A good mix of oils can be very simple- 100% olive oil (castille soap) is a classic.

But you can use coconut oil and olive oil and make an excellent soap as well.

More expensive oils like sweet almond oil, shea butter, cocoa butter, avocado butter, etc are very nice as well.

You can use some shea butter or cocoa butter to make rock-hard soap!

There are plenty of ways to use all-vegetable oils to make great soap, and still not use palm oil.

I've never added beeswax or stearic acid to my soap, so I can't comment on that.

 

[Seifenblasen]

I put all your oils, except Crisco, on Soap Calc, using approximately a 2:1 water to lye ratio, tweaked it a bit, and come up with this. It is not super hard, but definitely harder than 30. Not sure if you are more adverse to palm to to animal fat as stearic acid is usually derived from one or the other. You may want to check your source based on your personal preference.

Oh, I forgot to add that I used a 1000g oil default recipe. Depends on the amount of oils you use, you need to re-run it to get the right amount of lye and water.

[attachment=0:2nnwuikb]recipe.jpg[/attachment:2nnwuikb]

 

[petrolejka]

Hi, I think I am newer at this than you but I just wanted to say that I use babassu oil instead of coconut and palm oil. The values are similar to coconut and palm. It is a bit more expensive and babassu is actually a palm tree but it's supposed to be somehow different than regular palm oil. Just a suggestion for future

 

[Seifenblasen]

Unfortunately it is quite expensive - $11.28/lb at Wholesale Supplies Plus. Coconut oil, on the other hand, is $2.33/lb.

Just curious, does babassu oil add any special qualities to your soap when you replaced both coconut and palm with it? What percentage did you use? Thanks!

 

[Hazel]

Hi, I think I am newer at this than you but I just wanted to say that I use babassu oil instead of coconut and palm oil. The values are similar to coconut and palm. It is a bit more expensive and babassu is actually a palm tree but it's supposed to be somehow different than regular palm oil. Just a suggestion for future

Babassu is similar to coconut and palm kernel oil. Palm has different properties from these other than helping to add hardness to a batch. I love babassu in facial bars. Soaper's Choice has 7 lbs of babassu for $27.44 and even if you have to pay the highest shipping rate it would still only be $5.31 per pound.

shshimo -

I don't know if using a 2:1 water/lye ratio would be a problem. I do know stearic acid can cause soap to seize but you're not adding a large percentage. I do know it's cooler temps which contribute to it seizing so you'd want to make sure you combine everything at a higher temp.

I like Yooper's suggestion about just using coconut oil. You can use 100% CO with a high superfat (20%) to make it less drying. You can also add salt to make a salt bar and add coconut milk. You could also reduce the CO and add another oil in make the lather a little creamier.

Shea butter and cocoa butter are good suggestions, too.

You could make a bastile batch. It will take longer to cure but will eventually get hard. SoapCalc shows it with a low hardness value but olive oil does get hard.

65% Olive Oil pomace
25% Coconut Oil
10% Castor Oil

Just for your info (if you haven't read it already), both stearic acid and beeswax can suppress the lather a little. Also, I've read the recommended percentage for beeswax is 1%-2% but since I've never used beeswax in soap I can't verify if this is accurate. I played around on SoapCalc, dropped a couple of your oils and came up with the recipes below which I think might be rather nice.

60% Olive Oil pomace
25% Coconut Oil
6% Castor Oil
5% Shea Butter
2% Beeswax
2% Stearic Acid

Hardness 34
Cleansing 17
Conditioning 61
Bubbly 22
Creamy 23
Iodine 61
INS 144

or without stearic acid

60% Olive Oil pomace
25% Coconut Oil
8% Castor Oil
5% Shea Butter
2% Beeswax

Hardness 32
Cleansing 17
Conditioning 63
Bubbly 24
Creamy 23
Iodine 63
INS 142

You could also lower the OO and increase the CO.

55% Olive Oil pomace
30% Coconut Oil
8% Castor Oil
5% Shea Butter
2% Beeswax

Hardness 35
Cleansing 20
Conditioning 59
Bubbly 27
Creamy 22
Iodine 59
INS 150

 

[petrolejka]

I chose to use babassu oil because my son has coconut allergy, so when I was doing my research I was looking for oil that can replace coconut in soap recipes. I found palm kernel oil but then I read about babassu and how good it is for skin. My son also has bad eczema and babassu oil is supposed to be soothing. SO I bought that. I only used it in 2 batches so far and those are still curing. I tried the soap and it feels really nice. But as I said I am very very new so I have nothing to compare it to yet.
I lso use the oil on my sons skin and it is awesome. No greasy residue, melts when in contact with skin. Best thing about it is that my child doesnt scratch his skin all night long anymore and he can actually sleep comfortably now. So it's a big win for me

I plan on making a batch with coconut oil so I can compare it and see if it makes difference, but for our personal use will always use babassu because of the allergy.

here is an article I found on babassu if you want to read it http://blog.cibariasoapsupply.com/2009/ ... to-buy-it/

also I used 40% of babassu in my first batch and 11.4% in my second. In the future I plan on using 30% of babassu.

I get it from soaper's choice, they have the best price.

 

[Hazel]

That's a very informative article. Thanks for posting the link!

One thing you need to remember about babassu is it is similar to CO and PKO in that it is an emollient oil when unsaponified. However, it is altered through saponification and can be drying like the other two oils. I've found 30% in soap is too drying for my skin but I have dry, sensitive skin. Someone else might find a higher percentage is just fine. You'll have to experiment to see what you like. However, you can also use a higher superfat to offset the drying property of babassu.

BTW, I tried blending babassu and shea to make a whipped butter. The babassu didn't whip up like shea and it ended up being a heavier butter but it's lovely on the skin. I thought I'd mention it in case you wanted to give it a try since several people have commented shea helped with their eczema. I don't know if it would help your son but you might like a babassu/shea for yourself.

Please let us know how your soap is after curing. Don't forget the pictures. :wink:

 

[shshimo]

Thank you all for your suggestions, replies and recipes! I'm so grateful for such a wealth of information and willingness to help!

Seifenblasen:

I thank you for working up that recipe. My only concern is the CO.--and really, I think I just need to make soap and see what certain numbers do to my skin. But, do you have any idea how drying the cleansing values are? In one book I read, the author keeps all her cleansing values below 10. And others fall within the Soapcalc range. I tend to have dry-ish skin year-round, is 20 too drying? I just don't have a gauge yet. The 3 batches I've made so far have all been at or below 10 and, of course, none seem too drying for me. Would love your opinion on this.

Petrolejka: Thank you for the tip on the babassu oil. I will need to try some of it in my next batch.

Hazel: Thank you also for your recipes, I think I might give that first one a try.

Lastly, I also have a bunch of other carrier oils (avocado, apricot kernel, sweet almond)...are those worth throwing into soap or am I just wasting money.--should I save those for leave-on lotions/creams?

 

[Seifenblasen]

I chose to use babassu oil because my son has coconut allergy, so when I was doing my research I was looking for oil that can replace coconut in soap recipes. I found palm kernel oil but then I read about babassu and how good it is for skin. My son also has bad eczema and babassu oil is supposed to be soothing. SO I bought that. I only used it in 2 batches so far and those are still curing. I tried the soap and it feels really nice. But as I said I am very very new so I have nothing to compare it to yet.
I lso use the oil on my sons skin and it is awesome. No greasy residue, melts when in contact with skin. Best thing about it is that my child doesnt scratch his skin all night long anymore and he can actually sleep comfortably now. So it's a big win for me

also I used 40% of babassu in my first batch and 11.4% in my second. In the future I plan on using 30% of babassu.

Thank you for the link to the article and sharing your experience! I have not encountered anyone with coconut allergy but it is good to keep that in mind.

@shshimo: Avocado, apricot kernel, sweet almond are all very nice oils to use in soap and are conditioning, but they do not add to hardness. I worked up the recipe based on the oils you listed and what you were looking for:

I forgot to mention what characteristics I'm looking for, essentially hardness, bubbly and creamy (so about 50-50 with the latter two).

High percentage of coconut oil (high cleansing) value can be drying but it can be countered with a higher percentage of superfat.

Another approach for both hardness and conditioning is to use a high percentage of butters. Some people also add sodium lactate (derived from beets and other vegetables, no palm) to harden soap.

 

[Hazel]

shshimo -

I also have dry skin which is why I prefer to keep cleansing values at 17 or lower by using a lower percentage of coconut and including castor oil for its conditioning properties. Most of the time I only use 20%-25% coconut in recipes for myself with a superfat of 7%-8%. When I make soap for one of my nephews, I use 30% coconut and 5% castor for a cleansing value of 20 with a 5% superfat because it's what he prefers.

However, as was mentioned above, you can use a higher superfat to offset the dryness produced by coconut oil. If you wanted to use 30% CO, I'd suggest about a 10% superfat but this is what I prefer if I was making it for myself. You might find it too drying for your skin. It's something you're just going to have to experiment with and find out what's best for your skin.

You mentioned you're a vegetarian but are you opposed to using milk products in your soap? I know vegans won't use any milk plus they also don't use beeswax or honey. I just thought I'd mention that liquids like goat milk, buttermilk, cream, half & half, etc plus yogurt can be added to soap to increase the fat content and make soaps less drying. Some of my favorite recipes are ones in which I used buttermilk, cream and half & half. I also increase the coconut percentage a little and I've never found them drying to my skin.

As for your other carrier oils, it depends on what you're trying to achieve. I've used apricot kernel oil, avocado oil and babassu oil in facial soaps and really liked the soap. Avocado has a higher percentage of unsaponifiables so there's a better chance some of it might remain as a free oil in the batch. Avocado also helps to contribute to conditioning and a little more creaminess in the lather. Actually, I don't know if creaminess is the best description of what avocado imparts in the lather. Maybe I should say it makes the lather a little more dense. I'm sorry but I really don't know how to describe it. I don't use sweet almond oil so I can't tell you anything about it other than I know it's very conditioning. You might want to consider using these oils in HP batches. Then you could add them at the end of the cook as the superfat and you'd know they were the emollient oils in the soap.

I've tried a lot of different oils in recipes. I have found out I can make a very nice soap with basic oils just by altering the percentages in different recipes. The basic oils I use now are coconut, palm, lard, olive, high oleic sunflower, castor and sometimes hazelnut. I also like babassu, rice bran oil and safflower for specific recipes but I'm out of those oils. I'm actually not using hazelnut for myself anymore since I started using HO sunflower. Their properties are similar and sunflower costs a lot less. :wink: I save the hazelnut for using in recipes for a family member who has acneic skin. I rarely use butters in soap because I prefer to use them for leave on products. However, I recently made a batch in which I included 5% shea and I really liked it so I'll continue using shea for this recipe.

You don't have to use expensive/exotic oils to create a wonderful soap. Mainly it comes down to balancing the proportions of the oils, some additives and most importantly - personal preference.

eta: Sesame is nice in soap, too but not necessary. You can make really nice soap with just olive, coconut, castor and shea or cocoa butter.