Base oil formulating?

[hungryhawaiian]

Hello all! First post so please go easy on me! [emoji6]

Is there an easy guide for new soap makers to formulate base oil usage?

I’m looking to make a moisturizing bar with a good amount of suds but not too harsh in the skin. I currently have a decent amount of olive oil, coconut oil, rice bran oil, Shea butter, cocoa butter and beeswax. Also a small quantity of sweet almond oil and vitamin e.

All of my recipes to date have been about 50% olive oil then random mixes of coconut oil and Shea butter, with decent results, but I would like to further my knowledge and experience so today I went out and priced out oils at my local restaurant supply (not open to the general public). I saw a 35lb jug of rice bran oil for $35, which seemed cheap as heck, so I bought it. Now I’m eager to use it but I don’t really know how to maximize my efforts in creating a recipe. The biggest confusion is that I’ve read RBO can be substituted for Olive oil, but I haven’t seen much of it being used together. Is it a waste to use them together?

Any advice, info and/or recipes with what I have available would be appreciated!

 

[Dawni]

Ey there, love the name lol

I'm going to assume that you have been using a soap calculator so I'll be pointing you to this page.

It'll explain to you the numbers you're getting in the calculator, and the corresponding properties, so you can determine which oils are best to up or lower the amount, depending on what soap you want.

Eventually you'll find numbers aren't everything but I think the info on here is great for your first few recipes.

Generally speaking, if you want a soap that's less drying (soap can't moisturize), you'll use lower amounts of coconut. You'll need a hardener like cocoa and/or shea. Then you'll have higher conditioning oils, which are mostly soft oils. You'll need to find a balance, because you might end up with less bubbles, or maybe a soap thst doesn't harden at all. It'll take some experiments.

Having said that, there are people here who have switched to rice bran and have stopped using olive oil, and some who use both together. Rice bran is cheap here, I use it more than olive mainly for that reason.

 

[Meena]

@Dawni did a great job, just want to add that Rice Bran oil (RBO) is one of the oils with a short shelf life (which translates to DOS down the road), so you may want to buy some ROE (rosemary oleoresin) to add into your RBO stash as an antioxidant (preventing rancidity and DOS).

I'd also like to contribute this link, in addition to the one Dawni posted. It's in 3 parts, so keep scrolling.
http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/

Also, if you haven't already, please head over to the Introduction Forum and tell us about yourself!
Welcome!

 

[hungryhawaiian]

Ey there, love the name lol

I'm going to assume that you have been using a soap calculator so I'll be pointing you to this page.

It'll explain to you the numbers you're getting in the calculator, and the corresponding properties, so you can determine which oils are best to up or lower the amount, depending on what soap you want.

Eventually you'll find numbers aren't everything but I think the info on here is great for your first few recipes.

Generally speaking, if you want a soap that's less drying (soap can't moisturize), you'll use lower amounts of coconut. You'll need a hardener like cocoa and/or shea. Then you'll have higher conditioning oils, which are mostly soft oils. You'll need to find a balance, because you might end up with less bubbles, or maybe a soap thst doesn't harden at all. It'll take some experiments.

Having said that, there are people here who have switched to rice bran and have stopped using olive oil, and some who use both together. Rice bran is cheap here, I use it more than olive mainly for that reason.

Thank you! Yeah I’ve been using brambleberrys lye calculator but their app is severely flawed and keeps deleting my batches. I’ve tried other calculators but I always get stuck at the lye portion, whereas brambleberry does it automatically, and I have no clue how to figure the water to lye ratio. Just today I’ve tried tinkering with soapcalc’s website and tried to create a recipe with both RBO and OO, but it seems as if using both cancels out cleansing properties greatly as opposed to using one or the other.

You’re not kidding about finding a balance... I haven’t even experimented with my batches and I’m already exhausted! lol

Btw, thanks for the name compliment. It’s a play on words, particularly to people who know me. I’m a 6’4”, 400lb Hawaiian guy who’s literally and figuratively hungry. Always learning, always progressing. Soapmaking is only 1 of about 1000 different things I do. You can imagine the funny looks I get when I tell people I crochet, sew and make soap, amongst other things...

 

[hungryhawaiian]

@Dawni did a great job, just want to add that Rice Bran oil (RBO) is one of the oils with a short shelf life (which translates to DOS down the road), so you may want to buy some ROE (rosemary oleoresin) to add into your RBO stash as an antioxidant (preventing rancidity and DOS).

I'd also like to contribute this link, in addition to the one Dawni posted. It's in 3 parts, so keep scrolling.
http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/

Also, if you haven't already, please head over to the Introduction Forum and tell us about yourself!
Welcome!

I really wish I didn’t impulse buy the RBO but I have so many friends requesting to buy my soaps and I really wanted to branch out from my normal olive oil, coconut and Shea butter batches. Thank you so much for the link!

Also, heading over to the Introduction forum now! [emoji2]

 

[KiwiMoose]

Hi there HH,

I made one with similar ingredients in early Jan and it's turned out to be a lovely soap! I will share the recipe with you but I recommend you use a proper soap calculator as suggested above.

Avocado Oil 10%
Castor Oil 5%
Cocoa Butter 15%
Coconut Oil 25%
Olive Oil 20%
Rice Bran Oil 15%
Shea Butter 10%

Lye Concentration 30%

I always use about 20% Olive in my recipes. From what I can gather it is cheaper over here than in the USA. I also always use Rice Bran Oil at about 15%
(In the recipe above I actually used 15% Babassu and 10% Coconut but I have combined the two here as 25% Coconut)

I haven't used beeswax before but I often use soy wax. Maybe you could use 15% beeswax and omit the avocado oil, and drop the coconut back to 20%. Someone with more beeswax experience could possibly advise on that.

Good luck!

 

[atiz]

Don't use too much beeswax -- I would think above 5% (but maybe 3%) it will make the soap feel really waxy. I made a honey-beeswax soap that I really like with 3% beeswax; you can definitely feel the wax in it already.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Don't use too much beeswax -- I would think above 5% (but maybe 3%) it will make the soap feel really waxy. I made a honey-beeswax soap that I really like with 3% beeswax; you can definitely feel the wax in it already.

Thanks Atiz - like I say I've never used it. So HH maybe try 5 % beeswax and reduce your coconut accordingly? Also use your sweet almond instead of the avocado. Pop it into soap calc and see how it looks.

 

[Meena]

Thank you! Yeah I’ve been using brambleberrys lye calculator... I’ve tried other calculators but I always get stuck at the lye portion, whereas brambleberry does it automatically, and I have no clue how to figure the water to lye ratio.

I apologize that we all skipped right over something important you said in the quoted part above.

Most of us don't use the water to lye ratio, unless doing hot process (HP) where "full water" is needed. If you click that radio button on soapcalc, it will populate for you -- usually around 38%.

The rest of the time, you'll want to be using the lye concentration field. Click that radio button and enter a value between 30% and 33%, although the higher you go, the less likely you'll get gel or you'll have to work more at getting gel.

Here is a link to a discussion about water in soap.
https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

Have fun!

 

[KiwiMoose]

I apologize that we all skipped right over something important you said in the quoted part above.

Most of us don't use the water to lye ratio, unless doing hot process (HP) where "full water" is needed. If you click that radio button on soapcalc, it will populate for you -- usually around 38%.

The rest of the time, you'll want to be using the lye concentration field. Click that radio button and enter a value between 30% and 33%, although the higher you go, the less likely you'll get gel or you'll have to work more at getting gel.

Here is a link to a discussion about water.
https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

Have fun!

Yes - for some reason on my computer it only showed up this morning, not yesterday when you posted it - so i didn't see it either.

 

[Clarice]

http://www.soap-making-resource.com/beeswax-in-soap-making.html

This has a good discussion of beeswax - and recommends no more than 2%. I have not used it yet, so I cannot comment at all.

Welcome!

 

[midnightsoaper]

I really wish I didn’t impulse buy the RBO but I have so many friends requesting to buy my soaps and I really wanted to branch out from my normal olive oil, coconut and Shea butter batches. Thank you so much for the link!

Also, heading over to the Introduction forum now! [emoji2]

Don't regret the RBO purchase, it's a great oil! Just pay attention to the fatty acid profile of the recipes you formulate and keep the combined linoleic and linolenic acids below 15 (RBO is high in these). High linoleic/linolenic can lead to rancidity (DOS). RBO is a fair sub for OO, and I often use both together. RBO is a little cheaper and doesn't produce that OO slime (and maybe longer lasting & slightly bubblier?)...so I use just enough in place of OO to not go over that threshold of 15. Definitely worth testing in your formulas.

 

[Clarice]

I am super jealous of your RB buy! Well done!

I keep any "fragile" oil in my refrigerator - so maybe that will help extend the life as you experiment.

Of course, it sounds like you are going great guns so you will probably use up in no time!

 

[SaltedFig]

I do like beeswax in soap and usually use it at about 2-3%.
(The suggested usage maximum of 1-2% in that link is based on them adding the beeswax without taking it's SAP value into account - it's just as easy to add it to the list of oils - soap calculators usually have it listed with a SAP value).

I like to CP soap with beeswax, but it seems that most HP it (because of the temperature needed to melt the beeswax, if it's melted with the oils).
To CP with beeswax, melt the beeswax with a little separate oil first, slightly warm your batch oils and a stirring spoon (so the beeswax doesn't set around the cold spoon), and add the beeswax mixture to your oils while you stir.
The aim is to get the beeswax mixed in, without having to heat up the oils too much.

The rice bran oil does add a nice sheen to soap, so I'm with @midnightsoaper - don't regret it, just use it in moderation!

Thank you! Yeah I’ve been using brambleberrys lye calculator but their app is severely flawed and keeps deleting my batches. I’ve tried other calculators but I always get stuck at the lye portion, whereas brambleberry does it automatically, and I have no clue how to figure the water to lye ratio. Just today I’ve tried tinkering with soapcalc’s website and tried to create a recipe with both RBO and OO, but it seems as if using both cancels out cleansing properties greatly as opposed to using one or the other.

You’re not kidding about finding a balance... I haven’t even experimented with my batches and I’m already exhausted! lol

Btw, thanks for the name compliment. It’s a play on words, particularly to people who know me. I’m a 6’4”, 400lb Hawaiian guy who’s literally and figuratively hungry. Always learning, always progressing. Soapmaking is only 1 of about 1000 different things I do. You can imagine the funny looks I get when I tell people I crochet, sew and make soap, amongst other things...

Soapcalc is a good calculator (good SAP averages and it can be used without fuss).
Ignore the cleansing properties for olive oil - they are set at zero in all calculators!
Olive oil soaps still clean and lather, but they are gentle and take a long time to cure.
The numbers don't show the qualities of "oleic acid" particularly well - oleic acid isn't counted in hardness or cleansing - so while olive oil (high in oleic acid) makes a rock hard soap after a long cure, and cleanses just fine, the numbers don't reflect those qualities.

If you change option 3 (water) to be a lye ratio of around 2.4:1 to 2:1 [hydroxide:water], or a lye concentration of around 30% to 33%, you will be able to use this across multiple recipe types and get stable results (the other is an old default that can give variable results when you are changing recipes).

 

[Dawni]

Thank you! Yeah I’ve been using brambleberrys lye calculator but their app is severely flawed and keeps deleting my batches. I’ve tried other calculators but I always get stuck at the lye portion, whereas brambleberry does it automatically, and I have no clue how to figure the water to lye ratio. Just today I’ve tried tinkering with soapcalc’s website and tried to create a recipe with both RBO and OO, but it seems as if using both cancels out cleansing properties greatly as opposed to using one or the other.

Have you tried our calc? The forum has been testing this and I personally don't use any other anymore.
https://www.soapmakingfriend.com/soap-making-recipe-builder-lye-calculator/#
Also, if you've gone through the link I gave you, you'll find you don't need a high cleansing number anyway, so that's another point to consider.
DeeAnna's site (link I gave) also has a very useful page on calculating for liquid, have you found it? I highly suggest reading that as well.

You’re not kidding about finding a balance... I haven’t even experimented with my batches and I’m already exhausted! lol

Haha I know that feeling, but once you start soaping with whatever recipe you come up with, it gets easier to find that balance. At least, in my case, that's what happened.

Btw, thanks for the name compliment. It’s a play on words, particularly to people who know me. I’m a 6’4”, 400lb Hawaiian guy who’s literally and figuratively hungry. Always learning, always progressing. Soapmaking is only 1 of about 1000 different things I do. You can imagine the funny looks I get when I tell people I crochet, sew and make soap, amongst other things...

That's so cool.. And those people who give you funny looks for knowing how to crochet are just jealous

 

[hungryhawaiian]

Thank you all for the wonderful responses, advice and the overall welcome feeling! I will be spending the entire day reading up on all the links and info y’all have provided! =) Also, I ended up making a 5lb batch with the RBO and other oils. Will be cutting and posting results later. It was also my first time using poly-tubing as a mold.

 

[Clarice]

If you change option 3 (water) to be a lye ratio of around 2.4:1 to 2:1 [hydroxide:water], or a lye concentration of around 30% to 33%, you will be able to use this across multiple recipe types and get stable results (the other is an old default that can give variable results when you are changing recipes).

Learning so MUCH!

is there reading I can do about how the hydroxide: water ratio affects soaping?

In Zany's No Slime Castille I recall she set the ratio to 1.7:1 - was that just because it was a Castille?

Thank you!

 

[SaltedFig]

In addition to the links Dawni has posted, you might like to look at this
Aunti Clara did a magnificent set of (picture heavy ) trials, using varying water to create swirls she called Ghost Swirls ...
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
https://auntieclaras.com/2014/08/intentional-crop-circles-water-discount-as-a-design-tool/
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/10/ghost-swirl-soap-follow-up/

 

[Dawni]

Learning so MUCH!

is there reading I can do about how the hydroxide: water ratio affects soaping?

In Zany's No Slime Castille I recall she set the ratio to 1.7:1 - was that just because it was a Castille?

Thank you!

Auntie Clara's experiments are a great read on water. Also DeeAnna's, in the link Meena posted above

 

[hungryhawaiian]

In addition to the links Dawni has posted, you might like to look at this
Aunti Clara did a magnificent set of (picture heavy ) trials, using varying water to create swirls she called Ghost Swirls ...
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
https://auntieclaras.com/2014/08/intentional-crop-circles-water-discount-as-a-design-tool/
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/10/ghost-swirl-soap-follow-up/

Wow!!! Probably one of the best reads yet for someone like me. Thank you so much!!!