Anybody ever try using "exotic" additives for their cleansing soap?

[kagey]

if you are really interested in marketing a soap that solves a specific problem - other than getting clean - you should research the laws and regulations that apply to your geographic area.

I've worked in the advertising business for more than 20 years -- so I'm quite familiar with the laws.
But more than that: I'm seeking to formulate my soaps to solve specific issues that can be scientifically tested and assessed (hence the reason I'm soaping at all!)
so don't worry about me being one of those soapers that make all kinds of soaping claims based on the EO that supposedly do this and that. I plan on running an honest advertising campaign.

 

[AliOop]

I've worked in the advertising business for more than 20 years -- so I'm quite familiar with the laws.
But more than that: I seeking to formulate my soaps to solve specific issues that can be scientifically tested and assessed (hence the reason I'm soaping at all!)
so don't worry about me being one of those soapers that make all kinds of soaping claims based on the EO that supposedly do this and that. I plan on running an honest advertising campaign.

Yes, I was worried about that! Thanks for confirming your intent to do it the right way.

 

[paradisi]

yes -- I plan on becoming a lifetime supporter here once I turn a profit.

No, I mean share the profits with the people who will have made your product possible, if you ever do take one to market, not just making a tax deductible donation to a website (as good as that would be to do!).

"I'm not sharing my info with you until after I've patented something using your ideas and years of research instead of doing my own" isn't a great way to approach people.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

as a guy, what I care most about are the "practical" applications:
can it get all the funk of sweat, dirt and humidity off my skin?
Will it remove the smell of fish guts, squid, mussels or clams from my hands?
Does it leave me feeling clean & refreshed?

Ah, now we are getting somewhere... but it can wait until you give your clay soap a go. That just may do the trick for you.

GOOD LUCK & HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[kagey]

"I'm not sharing my info with you until after I've patented something using your ideas and years of research instead of doing my own" isn't a great way to approach people.

I don't think I've requested that anybody share a "secret" that's patentable or required years of research to steal for my own selfish purpose. And I'm pretty sure nobody has either.

To date, I have spent no less than 320 hours per month combing through forum threads, YouTube videos, published research papers, chemistry theories, re-learning molecular chemistry, reading newspaper articles as well as experimenting with various fatty oils and soap additives. And I have always offered to share my learnings as others have kindly shared with me.

If you take a deep dive into any famous inventor -- no breakthrough discovery has not been built on the back of those who went before them. Not Madame Curie. Not Jonas Salk. Not Louis Pasteur. Even Augusto Odone based his discovery from the works of medical papers he read. This is what it means to be part of a society. We gift to others what learn today so that those after us can have a head start.

If @Obsidian 's cornmeal, or @earlene 's borax or @lsg & @Zing 's coffee grounds turn into that magic ingredient that turns my soaping formula into a marketable winner and I'm able to turn this experiment into a Dr. Squatch empire -- then, I'll be happy to talk to them offline about compensating them fairly for their contribution. My soaping journey is transparent and easily documentable.

Having said that - I'm constantly surprised by the naysayers on this forum who are happy to tell me that I'm doing it all wrong but don't offer constructive criticism to the ingredients, approach or solution. In fact, @paradisi I don't recall you sharing anything in my threads that's been remotely useful.

If you don't want to share what works for you which you might think solves my problems, I'm okay with that. No one is twisting anybody's arm. If you're intrigued by my mission and want to be part of my soaping team, feel free to reach out to my offline to discuss a possible business relationship.

Just know that should things go well (which odds are, they won't), you can bet that I'll remember those like @Zany_in_CO and @DeeAnna, who have been nothing but friendly and helpful. And to them - I say "Thank you for making the soaping journey more pleasant. I wish there were more people like you!"

 

[Obsidian]

@kagey I went through my notes and I used cream of wheat, not cornmeal for my kitchen hand soap.
Its a really nice scrubby on the hands without being overly scratchy.

 

[kagey]

Ha - ha!
Too late -- bought some cornmeal and also found some flax seed meal.
Worse case, they help anchor the scents and maybe even provide some exfoilient.
Best case - they absorb the oil and leave your hands clean.
I'll know in a few days when I soap up a batch.

May look into cream of wheat in my next batches.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

to them - I say "Thank you for making the soaping journey more pleasant. I wish there were more people like you!"

Like most folks on SMF, I am nothing if not an enabler!

 

[AliOop]

@kagey don't forget me! I suggested 100% CO remember? and researching labeling laws?

I'm banking on you making it so big that a mere token "thank you" payment will fund the lifestyle to which I wish to become accustomed. ✈🏝

 

[lenarenee]

How about a cleansing balm made with an emulsifier like polysorbate to apply to oily hands instead, before washing? I love poly to get substantial grease stains out of clothing.

 

[kagey]

I planned on using polysorbate 80 when I moved on to creating bath bombs (a much later project)... but havent thought about using it in my kitchen hand soap bar. I think it's mostly used to get oils and water to play nicely together in a mixture. Putting it into a soap bar with nothing to blend with seems odd... but maybe something to look at...
thanks for the suggestion @lenarenee

 

[earlene]

Thank you @earlene for sharing your recipe! What grade of pumice do you use: medium, fine, extra fine?

I used the finest grade sold by the vendor at the time. I believe it was FF grade @ Making Cosmetics (link) if that is what they were selling at the time (my past orders do not show on their current website). A finer grade is available @ Save on Citric's site (FFF grade pumice).

I recommended buying the finest grade you can find in this post (a different thread.)

 

[AliOop]

I used the finest grade sold by the vendor at the time. I believe it was FF grade @ Making Cosmetics (link) if that is what they were selling at the time (my past orders do not show on their current website). A finer grade is available @ Save on Citric's site (FFF grade pumice).

I recommended buying the finest grade you can find in this post (a different thread.)

Perfect, thank you so much! Having read your prior posts about how sensitive your skin is to scratchy ingredients, I was guessing that was the case. But since the soap was made for other folks, I didn't want to assume.

 

[earlene]

@kagey, Thank you for crediting borax to me, but I am definitely not the first person who has ever used it in bar soap. What works best in tmy blacksmith soap is the combination of both Borax AND the pumice. As far as I know (but I could be entirely wrong), I did come up with that on my own. But 'there is nothing new' under the sun & all that.

If I didn't want to share, I wouldn't. No worries.

Oh, and even if Obsidian did not use cornmeal, someone has. I've seen it recommended in various places for creating an exfoliating soap.

Question: when you say you want certain oils to be removed, do you mean the smells of those oils, rather than the oily feel? I think those are somewhat different goals/functions and may require different solutions/ingredients.

For example, getting the smell of fish guts (or onions or garlic or whatever the offending odor may be) doesn't always happen even when the hands have been thoroughly cleaned. Sometimes I want to get the smell of the SOAP off my hands (LS in public restrooms, for example) and not have to smell that stuff for the next couple of hours!

I believe the approach for odor removal is a different subject altogether.

There was mention of PS80. I love that stuff for stain removal when laundering, even with old set-in stains. I have used it in LS, but never thought of, nor heard mention of using it in bar soap (not saying it hasn't been done, though.) It would be interesting to know your results if you ever do try it in bar soap.

 

[lenarenee]

I planned on using polysorbate 80 when I moved on to creating bath bombs (a much later project)... but havent thought about using it in my kitchen hand soap bar. I think it's mostly used to get oils and water to play nicely together in a mixture. Putting it into a soap bar with nothing to blend with seems odd... but maybe something to look at...
thanks for the suggestion @lenarenee

I don't think it would work in a bar soap. It would have to be a separate product.

But knows; maybe there's a new class of emulsifiers out there that would. Also....look at adding a detergent to your soap recipe. There's been some new fangled and rather nice ones available the past few years.

 

[kagey]

Also....look at adding a detergent to your soap recipe

I like the way you think.
I'll be using Borax as well as Sodium Carbonate ("Washing Soda") in my test batch.
I'm not too keen on using petroleum-based or sophisticated chemical additives to my soaps. (I'll leave that for Procter & Gamble.) But who knows? I going down the line exploring natural and obvious choices -- and as I eliminate them as ineffective, look at what else is available.

 

[lenarenee]

I like the way you think.
I'll be using Borax as well as Sodium Carbonate ("Washing Soda") in my test batch.
I'm not too keen on using petroleum-based or sophisticated chemical additives to my soaps. (I'll leave that for Procter & Gamble.) But who knows? I going down the line exploring natural and obvious choices -- and as I eliminate them as ineffective, look at what else is available.

Not all detergents are petroleum based. Sodium gluconate is one.Some are coconut based and one comes from apples, although I don’t know if there are other components.

 

[Nona'sFarm]

Know I'm late to join the conversation, but now I am very curious by some of the discussion. In my mind, if you are trying to clean some type of stubborn oil off of your skin, you would need a super cleanser. Something that lathered well and stripped off oil like a high coconut oil soap like @AliOop suggested. I have not tried dual lye soaps, but I understand they really lather well. If you are trying to clean off ground in dirt or oily dirt, then you might want to add something like pumice like @earlene suggested. My favorite exfoliants are crushed walnuts and green zeolite clay.
Oh and by the way, some people, like me, are allergic to sulfur; so hopefully your soap ingredients list will be easy to read.
Anyway, have fun. Let us know how it goes.

 

[kagey]

My favorite exfoliants are crushed walnuts and green zeolite clay.

better late than never! besides this will be an ongoing missoin!

Yeah - got zeolites on my radar.
Waiting for Amazon to deliver my 3X Activated Pure Zeolite Clinoptilolite.
It's supposed to be good for absorbing oil...
between this (if and when it arrives), a couple of different versions of Bentonite clay, cornmeal, borax, sodium carbonate, beta cyclodextrin and some other possible additives.

Although I don't think an exfoliant is necessary to remove this oil.
I either need something that absorbs it, neutralizes it (breaks it down into other compounds) or somehow encapsulates it and allows it to be washed away.

BTW, I love crushed walnuts as an exfoliant. It's in the St. Ives facial scrub I occassionally use.

Since my soaps have a high cleansing number (30+) they also produce a whole lot of lather.
So much, that I could probably shave with them.
I don't think lather or bubbles is my issue... it seems to be more of a "chemistry problem."
So I'm devoting part of my research time re-learning organic chemistry... smh!

Here's something I learned as I was studying the soap calculator numbers:
you know how I said that most soap fatty acids total 96-98?
and how if you make palmatic or stearic more, that number has to come from one of the other acids?
well, I took it a step further and simply added all the acid numbers for each oil.
And to my surprise, they're all over the place!
If you use MuruMuru Butter or Grapeseed Oil - their total scores are 100.
But if you use Coconut Oil -- it's total score is 89!

What does that mean?
Well, to me, it means that if you have the choice between Murumuru or Coconut Oil as your hard "cleansing" oil -- murumuru will contribute more to the Palmitic, Oleic and Linoleic totals -- thus (theoretically) producing more bubbles, lather AND conditioning. Making it a better choice (if cost was no issue).
if the amount of fatty acids per ounce of oil indeed produce results as the Soap Calc predicts.... shouldn't we be all only be using oils that can give us the highest scores?
wouldn't we all want are soap to be the creamiest, bubbliest and most conditioning bars of soap?

anyway...

Thanks for your suggestion.
Will post test results after my soaps are made.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

But if you use Coconut Oil -- it's total score is 89!

What does that mean?

It means that you have discovered that coconut oil contains significant amounts of “minor fatty acids”, that rarely appear in the FA profile but do consume lye like any other FA.

In case of coconut (and other lauric oils to some degree as well), these minor FAs are the mid-chain fatty acids (caproic, caprylic, capric acid – cf. “MCT oil”, “neutral oil”, or “fractionated coconut”). They are part of the reason why the SAP of coconut oil is so high. With lye, they produce soap-like sodium salts; reports disagree if such MCT soaps a marvellous addition to soap, neutral/useless, or even detrimental (major skin irritants).

Look up Abyssinian oil for a more dramatic example (numbers add up to mere 38, still it's an ordinary oil without excessive unsaponifiables – in this case, soap calculators miss erucic acid).
Lye calculators are lazy to some degree, and the “property numbers” they give are not always accurate and misleading at times – FWIW, that's not a fundamental flaw, because too much “number trust” isn't sensible at all due to natural variability in FA profiles, lye purity, etc.