Anybody ever try using "exotic" additives for their cleansing soap?

[kagey]

In specific - I'm looking at adding one or more of these at trace (prolly not all for the same bar of soap)
magnisium hydroxide
aluminum hydroxide
beta cyclodextrin
sulfur (or sulphur)

(I'm hoping @DeeAnna our resident chemist my chime in!)

I'm on a mission to extract certain stubborn oils from your hands - and it seems that no matter how "cleansing" my fatty oils are, they don't totally work. So, I'm looking at additives.
So far I've tried bentonite clay and activated charcoal with limited success...

Any thoughts?

 

[Obsidian]

Magnesium will cause a ton of soap or even the soap to loose cohesion and fall apart.

Aluminum will react with the lye and produce toxic fumes and excessive heat.

I add cornmeal to my gardener soap, it helps remove grease and set in dirt.

 

[DeeAnna]

I second what Obsidian said.

Sulfur is a medicinal ingredient that should be used on the skin for specific reasons, not for general handwashing or bathing. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone tout it for cleaning greasy, grimy hands. In addition, sulfur can leave a lingering objectionable odor on the skin.

@earlene makes a soap with borax that works well for grimy blacksmith's hands.

I know nothing about beta cyclodextrin.

If you want targeted advice, you should be more specific about the "certain stubborn oils" you have in mind.

 

[AliOop]

What superfat and what oils are you using? Whether liquid or bar soap, 100% CO with 0% superfat will strip so much oil it will get your skin peeling, guaranteed.

 

[lsg]

I use finely ground coffee in my mechanics soap.

 

[kagey]

Thanks all for your replies! Especially @DeeAnna - your wisdom has been invaluable.

Just so you don't think I'm one of those crackpots -- I seriously have found soaps that have magneisum and sulfur in them... as well as soaps with epsom salt! So it can be done... now whether or not it will perform is another story...

a few examples:
https://enviroklenz.com/product/enviorklenz-odor-neutralizing-bar-soap/https://www.dermaharmony.com/products/sulfur-salicylic-acid-body-and-facial-soaphttps://grandpasoap.com/products/epsom-salt-bar-soap/
Although sulfur soap at 10%+ is advertised as medicinal for acne, I've read that in some countries, sulfur soap is quite common. I would not be using it at 10%. (Heck, may not even use it at all!)

I also have no qualm in making hot process soap (or M&P) to allow the lye to fully saponify before adding a possible oil-absorbing additives. So, all my questions don't necessarily pertain to CP soapmaking.

Thank you @Obsidian for your recommendation of cornmeal.
I've used cornstarch and baking soda -- but did not consider cornmeal. Will give it a shot.

Thanks @lsg for your reco of coffee grounds.
I have made a loaf using it (see photo below) - and found it to be a good exfoilant. But it doesn't have the absorption properties that I'm looking for.

I've resisted using Borax (used in @earlene 's mechanic soap), but will be trying to see if it can improve my formula. (My past experience with borax as a kid left a negative impression.)

Thanks @AliOop for 0% SF coconut soap reco. I will try this, and also experiment with creating 100% oil, 0% SF with my other cleansing oils to see if they perform better. Murumuru and Babassu oils have a better "total score" than coconut... meaning they have more and a wider variety of fatty acids which, on paper, seems to fulfill what I'm looking for.

In addition to borax & cornmeal, I'm considering using Kieselguhr, Fuller's Earth and maybe even urea. Beta cyclodextrin is an ingredient that's supposedly in Febreeze which envelops certain molecules... I don't know if it will work, but I've seen that it's used in oral medicine and food products.

Like I said, I'm on a mission!

I'm also looking at using oils with longer carbon chains -- as well as the extreme opposite (like Babassu & Murumuru [an oil so amazing they named it twice!]) -- I'm having to relearn chemistry to approach this problem from a molecular level! Who thought doing this could be so complicated!

Anyway - I'm starting to walk away from loaf soap and to make my experiments less costly, will be making smaller batches. Will be happy to post if anyone's interested.


BTW - I found a great resource for learning about cosmetic additives that seems non-biased:
https://cosmeticsinfo.org

 

[DeeAnna]

I don't think anyone is saying you CAN'T make soap with calcium, magnesium or sulfur. Just that there are definite downsides to these ingredients as soap additives, especially when making hand crafted soap using typical CP or HP methods. Many of the commercial makers who use these ingredients are milling them into the finished soap. Milling (aka French milling) is not a technique most handcrafters have available to them.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Calcium and magnesium soaps are very widespread – it's that sticky goo around your sink that's called soap scum. In bulk, it makes up a disgusting slime that is nearly impossible to wash off skin, pretty much the opposite of what (sodium/potassium) soap is usually used for. It feels like a mix of snot, glue, and half-cured silicone rubber.

Aluminium soaps are in technical use, e. g. as a component of the glorious stuff with which the West brought peace and civilisation to Vietnam. It's simple to make (from liquid soap and alum), but I haven't deliberately made it by myself to test what it is like; and I have little intention to do so – from what I've read it's probably quite similar to Ca/Mg soap.

Plus, all these metal hydroxides are much weaker bases than NaOH or KOH, so they won't react with oils as much as conventional lye does.

With cyclodextrin, my guess would be it's mostly like sugar/starch, i. e. some increased lather/solubility, maybe a colour shift, but nothing justifying the price of cyclodextrin to put into a wash-off product.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I'm on a mission to extract certain stubborn oils from your hands

As @DeeAnna mentioned, it would be helpful to know what "stubborn oils" we are addressing? For example, on another thread, I mentioned that straight olive oil will remove waterproof mascara and a ballpoint pen ink mark from a silk blouse. Sweet Orange EO will remove the sticky stuff left behind when you take the label off a jar and want to re-purpose it.

The concept is "oil on oil" works. Maybe, instead of soap, you need a scrub like mixing fine pumice (or coarse salt), almond oil (or oil of choice), and orange or other EO?

ETA: Have you tried LAVA HEAVY DUTY HAND CLEANER SOAP? I imagine that would be easy to duplicate if it works for you.

 

[kagey]

The concept is "oil on oil" works.

Yep -- thans for your thoughts.
That's why I'm looking into Superfatting as well as what oils for the base formula.

Am familiar with LAVA -- they put Petrolatum in it. I'm trying to keep my bars "all natural" as in no petroleum products.

I don't really think I need an exfoilant (pumice, walnut shells, coffee grounds, etc) as much as something that would either absorb oils, neutralize them (milks maybe?) break down/"cleave" molecules into different compounds (like an enzyme) or something that might microencapsulate the oil... and allow it to be washed away.

when you start to look at cosmetics and cleaning products at a molecular level, it gives you a whole new appreciation for these chemical companies and genius behind the brands.

Did you know that there's more than one type of Bentonite Clay?

 

[earlene]

What I use that works best for my brother the blacksmith, better than Lava and better than if only one or the other ingredient is included in the soap is bar soap that includes both Borax AND Pumice.

For 32 ounces of oils (900 grams of oil), 2.2 ounces of Borax (62 grams of Borax), 3 Tablespoons (33 grams) Pumice. I also use dual lye (95% NaOH+ 5% KOH). I have added Honey to increase bubbles, but that really isn't necessary if your oils are high in cleansing oils. The oils used can be what you prefer, but when I make the soap this way for my brother, it removes the stains that blacksmithing produces the same day he washes. All other soaps, including industrial strength mechanic soaps take a full 5 days or more of scrubbing before his hands look normal again. Then he works in the blacksmith shop and has to start all over again.

My husband prefers this to any others he has tried after working on the cars (he does almost all of the maintenance on our vehicles.)

The oils I have used have included animal fats sometimes and sometimes not. Even with a cleansing number of only 14, this combination in soap works wonders from the point of view of the men in my life who get greasy and grimy.

Some people have a problem with using Borax in hand soap, but you can make up your own mind on that issue. The reason I used it was because when I searched the Blacksmith forums for how they cleaned their hands, the best thing some had found for them was straight Borax. It's also used in the blacksmithing process for many things that they do, so I had no doubt that my brother would balk at it as an additive.

The Borax has to be dissolved in hot water prior to mixing into the soap batter. Deduct the water from what is used for lye solution. The pumice should be added when the batter is at a thick enough trace that it won't sink the the bottom of the mold. (So not at thin trace.)

There is a thread about my blacksmith soap, but the attached recipe had the wrong amount of Borax, which I later explained on page 3 of that thread. Perhaps the next time I make a batch, I'll post a new thread & link to it in the old thread for clarity.

 

[AliOop]

Thank you @earlene for sharing your recipe! What grade of pumice do you use: medium, fine, extra fine?

 

[Zany_in_CO]

here is a thread about my blacksmith soap, but the attached recipe had the wrong amount of Borax, which I later explained on page 3 of that thread.

BORAX HAND SOAP FOR BLACKSMITH OR OTHER DIRTY WORK

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Am familiar with LAVA -- they put Petrolatum in it. I'm trying to keep my bars "all natural" as in no petroleum products.

You may find this helpful, assuming "Petrolatum" is aka "Vaseline"
DIY HOMEMADE VASELINE SUB FOR PETROLEUM JELLY

As for the rest of the ingredients, go to the Recipe Feedback Forum for help in duplicating the formula.
SOURCE: https://files.wd40.com/pdf/Lava_Bar_Whats_In_It.pdf

Did you know that there's more than one type of Bentonite Clay?

Yes, but I'm not sure that is germane to this discussion.

What IS germane, is the "certain stubborn oils" you seem reluctant to identify. Not being snippy, just wondering WHY ??? Providing that information would help us to help you.

 

[SoapDaddy70]

I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that if you are looking to add all these type of "exotic" additives, wouldn't it just be easier to buy a specific soap targeted to your needs. The beauty of an artisan soap recipe is in it's simplicity - lye solution plus oils equals soap.

 

[AliOop]

BORAX HAND SOAP FOR BLACKSMITH OR OTHER DIRTY WORK

Thanks, I read that thread but never saw anything about the grade of pumice. There is a tremendous difference in scratchiness between extra fine, fine, regular, and coarse. Hopefully @earlene can let us know which one she has used that has worked so well in her bars.

 

[kagey]

I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that if you are looking to add all these type of "exotic" additives, wouldn't it just be easier to buy a specific soap targeted to your needs.

The thing is: there's no current soap on the market made for this problem. Hence, my reluctance to discuss exactly what I'm trying to accomplish with my formula. (I don't know if it's impossible to solve or if it's just something that's so niche - it isn't worth the investment by large corporations.) I promise I'll reveal more once I've gotten closer to cracking this nut.

The beauty of an artisan soap recipe is in it's simplicity - lye solution plus oils equals soap.

IMHO, the beauty of artisan soaps is the customizability... especially the formulas.
There are handmade soaps out there for eczema, acne, ashen skin and more... made for campers, gardners, even blacksmiths... using unique ingredients like hemp oil, goat's milk, sulphur, colloidal oatmeal, borax... (things the soaping companies aren't doing).

I dig all the lines, layers, swirls, woodgrain technique, etc. that YouTube soapmakers are doing -- but as a guy, what I care most about are the "practical" applications:
can it get all the funk of sweat, dirt and humidity off my skin?
Will it remove the smell of fish guts, squid, mussels or clams from my hands?
Does it leave me feeling clean & refreshed?

Without really realizing it, I've been collecting a "wish list" of things I wanted my soaps to do. for example: H2O used to make an amazing "cooling" shower soap that they discontinued. I've kept the last bottle of shower gel in a drawer for 20 years. (Turns out they used pennyroyal in it!) Now, I can try to recreate this recipe (without harmful EOs). A great summertime soap...

Now, armed with the knowledge shared here and on YouTube and blogs, I can take a shot and creating soaps that tackle the issues that I believe are problematic. (again, who knows if they really are?)

Yes, but I'm not sure that is germane to this discussion.

Ahh, but it is.
There's sodium bentonite, calcium bentonite, magnesium bentonite and potassium bentonite... only one works best at absorbing oils. Did you know that most soap suppliers don't even know the difference?

Anyway - I digress...
I'm planning on creating a master batch of soap batter soon and adding specific additives at trace into each individual bar... something like what Soap & Clay does here:


(nice video BTW)
or an updated version of this:
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/blog/lather-lovers-additive-testing
I'd be happy to post results to those interested (or create a new thread to talk more about this experiment).

As always -- many thanks to all who generously share their experience and knowledge on these forums.
I would not be making such giant strides in my soaping journey without you guys.

 

[paradisi]

You're planning to share a percentage of your profits & royalties from the secret soap you plan to market after using all the generous expertise and technical advice given to you here, right? Since it's their knowledge and work you'd be using?

 

[AliOop]

I second @paradisi 's post!

Also, while it is true that there are hand-crafted soaps which advertise as being effective for acne, eczema, and other skin problems, most if not all of those are marketed in flagrant violation of testing and labeling laws that prohibit such marketing.

So if you are really interested in marketing a soap that solves a specific problem - other than getting clean - you should research the laws and regulations that apply to your geographic area.

 

[kagey]

You're planning to share a percentage of your profits & royalties from the secret soap you plan to market after using all the generous expertise and technical advice given to you here, right?

yes -- I plan on becoming a lifetime supporter here once I turn a profit.