Another Question

[HorseCreek]

So, I guess I'm still working through this LS thing.
Is it harsher to your skin than a nicely SF bar of soap? With the lower SF of LS and such? Can you make a nice LS that isn't going to completely strip you of everything and leave you dry like store bought soap? Thanks

 

[Susie]

My liquid soap is not drying to my skin. Not like a bar soap can.

 

[IrishLass]

I don't find my liquid soap drying at all, but I should mention that I've only ever used it for washing my hands sink-side.

I use the glycerin method to make my LS, and I make 2 different formulas with it, neither of which feel drying to me. Both have a built-in superfat of 3% as per SummerbeeMeadows advanced lye calculator, but to one of them I add an extra 3% of superfatting in the form of 2% stearic acid and 1% meadowfoam seed oil after dilution (with enough PS80 to emulsify them into the mix).

IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

I tend to agree that many liquid soap recipes make harsh, drying cleansers. Many LS recipes use a lot of coconut or palm kernel oil to boost the bubbly lather, so they are much higher in myristic and lauric acids. In addition to that, a potassium soap (KOH soap) is more soluble in water than a sodium soap (NaOH soap), all other things being equal. This means a liquid soap with a high cleansing number will be harsher than a bar soap made from exactly the same fats.

I think many recipes are focused on making a clear, bubbly, thick liquid soap. I don't think anyone wants to make LS that strips the hide off, but I do think mildness takes a back seat to the other qualities listed. I'm not any expert at LS recipe design, but it seems to me that we can use the same "numbers" from soapcalc to evaluate liquid soap recipes in the same way that we evaluate bar soap recipes.

I've been using the recipe from Irish Lass and 3Bees in the shower including as a shampoo. It works surprisingly well, and I'm not getting dry or tight skin and my scalp and hair are fine. Here are some of my thoughts about this recipe --

Ingredients:
Castor Bean Oil 10.0%
Coconut Oil 25.0%
Olive Oil 65.0%
3% superfat
100% KOH
Water/glycerin to KOH ratio of 3:1
Use Water wt = KOH weight
and Glycerin wt = 2 x KOH weight

My method:
Dissolve KOH in an equal weight of water. When KOH is dissolved, add the glycerin. Add the hot lye solution to the slightly warmed fats and stick blend and stir until the batter starts to saponify. No additional heat is needed. When the soap turns into a thick taffy-like paste, cover and leave to saponify in peace. When zap free, dilute 1 part paste with about 0.75 parts water.

If I look at the fatty acid profile for this recipe, I'm seeing values that are reasonably close to what I would like to see if I was formulating a solid bar soap --

Hardness (Lau-Myr-Palm-Ste) 30.8% Obviously this has no meaning for a liquid soap, so I ignore it
Cleansing, solubility (Lau-Myr) 16.8% I normally look for cleansing at 10-12%. A number of 17% is a bit high but tolerable. The recipe lathers freely.
Conditioning (Oleic-Lino-Ric) 65.6% This is a very nice number for conditioning
Bubbly (Lau-Myr-Ric) 25.8% The bubbly and creamy numbers are good. The soap makes a nice froth of large bubbles.
Creamy (Palm-Ste-Ric) 23.1% After rubbing the soap on the skin for a few seconds, a dense layer of lather develops.

Saponification (INS) 142.3
Iodine 66.4

Lauric 12.0
Myristic 4.8
Palmitic 11.4
Stearic 2.7
Oleic 47.3
Ricinoleic 9.0
Linoleic 8.7
Linolenic 0.7

I realize this is a little rambly but I hope it gives you some ideas to think about....

 

[cmzaha]

I use a recipe in Sally Trew's book The Complete Idiot's Guide to Making Natural Soaps which I believe she designed for her mom during her illness. It is a fantastic gentle good lathering liquid soap. She usually a high percentage of castor oil in the recipe from what I remember, do not have the recipe in front of me

 

[new12soap]

I have nowhere near the experience w liquid soap as the previous posters, but I have used several handmade LS's and they have all been more drying than handmade bar soap, but less drying or irritating than commercials soaps, liquid or bars.

 

[Susie]

*Edited*

 

[Susie]

Just bought the Complete Idiot's Guide to Natural Soap Making. Jumped right to the liquid soap section. First thing I noticed is that she uses a lye heavy method. You do NOT have to make lye heavy soap, then neutralize. You can simply put her oils into the lye calculator and type in the amount of superfat you want (0-3%), then hit calculate. No neutralizing needed.

 

[new12soap]

I am a nurse, and raised by a nurse. I am a VERY frequent handwasher.(and that is putting it mildly) I also used to get eczema very badly before making my own soap. And I do mean very badly. I say this just to let you know that if you pay attention to your oils and superfat percentages, you should not get dry skin from handmade liquid soap, regardless.

I can't tell you why the soap you bought is more drying than your bars, but you need to make your own(so you know what is in it) before condemning all handmade liquid soaps.

Wow.

No idea if that was directed at me, but just... wow.

I made it clear that I am far from expert wrt LS, I never said I bought the soap, never said I hadn't made my own, and I certainly never condemned any let alone all LS. The OP asked a question, I answered with my own personal experience.

 

[Susie]

My sincere apologies new12soap! I apparently came off as being angry. I truly did not mean it to sound that way. Please forgive me! Editing it now!

 

[new12soap]

Sometimes we don't come across in print the way we mean to, hard to read body language or tone. Thanks for clearing it up

 

[IrishLass]

I've been using the recipe from Irish Lass and 3Bees in the shower including as a shampoo. It works surprisingly well, and I'm not getting dry or tight skin and my scalp and hair are fine.

Thank you for sharing- that is good to know! One of these days, I need to try it out in the shower for myself. I've been so enamored with using my bar soaps in the shower (there's just something very appealing about to me) that I've just left my liquid soap for sink-side use.


IrishLass

 

[new12soap]

I do very much want to try the 3bees1flower - IrishLass recipe/technique.

 

[Meganmischke]

I really think turkey red castor oil makes a huge difference in my ls.

 

[Obsidian]

I make a mostly OO LS that is low cleansing and it still dries my skin out. I use occasionally on my hair but I can't use it on my body. I much prefer a nice bar with a higher SF.

 

[HorseCreek]

Thank you all for the wonderful replies! I have lots of people asking for LS, but don't want to offer a product that will potentially be sub par on the drying the skin out front. Finally got some KoH to play with, so guess I just need to bite the bullet and see what happens!

 

[DeeAnna]

I really want to emphasize that SOME liquid soaps can be harsh and drying ... just as SOME bar soaps can also be awful (a few of my early recipes come to mind!) I'm not pointing fingers or criticizing anyone, so I sure apologize -- I did not intend to do that at all.

I think the popularity of liquid soapmaking is rising, now that there are straightforward methods of LS making for soapers to try. Like Susie said, formulate your recipe with up to 3% superfat and you do NOT need to deal with neutralization. From the comments I read, the challenge of neutralizing LS is probably the single biggest turnoff for people considering making liquid soap. And it causes a lot of discouragement and failure when people actually do it. So it's nice to know it's not necessary.

I think there are different balls to juggle when formulating a liquid soap compared with solid bar soap, but I have every reason to think a good LS can be mild and pleasant to use. I get the impression that there's a tendency to throw more coconut oil into a LS to get lots of bubble-age without considering its effect on the skin when coupled with using KOH to make the soap.

As time goes on and more and more soapers become adept at making LS, I think we're going to see better advice come along about formulating liquid soap recipes. Not that there aren't some recipes that are winners right now! If Irish Lass and 3Bees' recipe (see above) was at all harsh, I guarantee I'd not be using it as shampoo. My scalp definitely does get itchy if the soap is not right, and I'm not seeing that at all with this recipe. If you want to try making liquid soap, this recipe is an excellent place to start.

 

[sassanellat]

My sincere apologies new12soap! I apparently came off as being angry. I truly did not mean it to sound that way. Please forgive me! Editing it now!

Susie, sometimes I think people read posts from people that are trained to be concise, and read it as angry or off-putting. I know our lingo at work is dry (read a scientific paper), and I train my nurses all semester to be complete and concise (which can have this effect). I didn't read it as angry at all, but if I look at it sideways, I can see the interpretation.

 

[Susie]

It happens a lot. I have 2 aunts that are nurses, the next door neighbor was a nurse, and all my mother's friends were nurses. So, nobody in my world used 3 words when one would do. But I would rather apologize and pull it down than to cause any sort of drama.