Anionic / Cationic ingredients

Soapmaking Forum

Help Support Soapmaking Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

eden

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2008
Messages
127
Reaction score
7
Location
somewhere north of Eden
This might be a dumb question but how do you know what is what? Cationinc, anionic and I guess there is also non-ionic ...this is probably basic chemistry but I don't have this knowledge.
I am having emulsion failure using a new preservative I am trying - it is cationic (Leucidal SF MAX) ...this emulsion was perfectly stable using Optiphen Plus. My emulsifier is Simulgreen 18-2 (trade name) INCI is Hydroxystearyl Alcohol and Hydroxystearyl Glucoside

Generally - how does one learn which ingredients are what? TYVM

updated to add: I did more digging and found my emulsifier is non-ionic ...so I am not sure why the failure when using this preservative ...
 
Last edited:
Susan Swift has a good explanation, "Anionic, cationic, and non-ionic refer to the charge on the ingredient in question. Non-ionic means it has a neutral charge. Anionic means it has a negative charge. And cationic means it has a positive charge. Most of our foaming, bubbling surfactants are anionic or negatively charged. Non-ionic surfactants, those with a neutral charge, create larger, rod-like micelles, so they can pack closer together, so the critical micelle concentration is lower, which means they’re more gentle surfactants than the anionics or negatively charged surfactants."


Now to add my two cents; just remember I don't claim to be a chemist. I use her description in terms of surfactants and making shampoos, body washes and liquid dish detergents. These are my observations from reading Susan's blog. To get high bubbling, one might want to use an anionic product such as SLS. Use of SLS only can make a harsh product. To make a milder product with bubbles, one might combine an anionic surfactant with a non-ionic surfactant such as decyl glucoside and an amphoteric surfactant such as cocamidopropyl betaine. This will give you a milder and thicker product. Susan's Point of Interest blog subscriptions start at $1. per month. She has a world of information to help an amateur such as myself understand how to produce good B&B formulas.

As to your question concerning Leucidal SF, the Herabrie has this to say about it:
-May disrupt some emulsions
-Not compatible with anionics
Also it is listed as a broad spectrum antibacterial. It says nothing about the prevention of mold.
 
It looks like the manufacturer, SEPPIC, has discontinued production of the emulsifier Simulgreen 18-2*
(See: https://www.sr-skincare.co.uk/simulgreen-182-958-p.asp)
(*edited to add: this is also mentioned in the SwiftCraftMonkey blog that lsg refers to, although the manufacturer's own website doesn't mention it)

According to comment on this page, Simulgreen needs a stabiliser and and is prone to failure:
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/3020/simulgreen-18-2
(Elsewhere it's stated that Simulgreen fails without high-sheer mixing)

Without going further into the details of your formula, perhaps the emulsifier is the issue and the change highlighted this?

On your question of anionic, cationic and neutral ...
Atoms

Atoms are the building blocks of our world.
Atoms have a core (called the nucleus) and rings (called "shells) around them (a bit like Saturn and it's rings - an Atom has a "nucleus" and "shells")

Inside the nucleus are some neutrons (they have no electrical charge ... hence the neutral/neutron name!).
Also inside the nucleus are some protons (they have a positive charge ... hence the name including "pro", which means "for" or "positive").

Spinning around the outside of the nucleus, like rocks in ring layers around Saturn, are the electrons (electrons are fast, light and negatively charged).
(Trivia: Electricity is the flow of electrons)

When the number of positively charged protons and negatively charged electrons are the same, there is no charge (the charge is neutral).

An element is simply an atom with a particular number of protons in it's core.
Eg. Hydrogen, which is element number 1, is an atom with one proton in it's core
and Oxygen, which is element number 8, is an atom with 8 protons in it's core.​

Molecules
A molecule is made up of a collection of elements.
These can be the same element, or made up of different elements.
Eg. The gas "hydrogen" has molecules of H2 (two hydrogen atoms bound together)
and the liquid "water" has molecules of H2O (two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom).​

Ions
An atom can lose or gain electrons.
(When an atom has lost or gained electrons, it is called an "ion")

The atomic ion (with it's core of neutrons and protons) has an electrical charge.
If the atom has lost some electrons, it becomes positively charged (there are now more protons than electrons). A positively charged ion is called a "cation".
If the atom has gained some electrons, the atom's overall electrical charge becomes more negative and this ion is called an "anion".​

In the same way, a collection of atoms (in a molecule) can have a positive, negative or neutral charge.

When the number of electrons in an atom or molecule is not the same as the number of protons, the atom or molecule is referred to as an "ion".

Anionic, Cationic and non-ionic
The final substance, after all of the individual molecular charges are combined, can be described as having an overall (or net) charge.

The net charge is the sum of all of the individual charges.

Molecules and products follow the same naming ... they are referred to as anionic if the net charge is negative, cationic if the charge is positive and neutral (or non-ionic) if there is no charge.

Why the electrical charge matters
The electrical charges work like magnets, only on a molecular level ... positively charged ions are attracted to the negatively charged ions.

When formulating a product, if the overall charges of the ingredients are kept the same (negatives with negatives, for example), or are a mix of one charge and neutral (positives with positives and a neutral, as another example), the product is more likely to remain stable.

If products with varying charges are blended, there can be unwanted combinations formed by the attraction between the anionic and cationic ingredients, and this can lead to unwanted lumps/gels/slime forming in your product (as the molecular attraction overcomes your best mixing efforts!).

I hope that helps :)
 
Last edited:
It looks like the manufacturer, SEPPIC, has discontinued production of the emulsifier Simulgreen 18-2*
(See: https://www.sr-skincare.co.uk/simulgreen-182-958-p.asp)
(*edited to add: this is also mentioned in the SwiftCraftMonkey blog that lsg refers to, although the manufacturer's own website doesn't mention it)

According to comment on this page, Simulgreen needs a stabiliser and and is prone to failure:
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/3020/simulgreen-18-2
(Elsewhere it's stated that Simulgreen fails without high-sheer mixing)

Without going further into the details of your formula, perhaps the emulsifier is the issue and the change highlighted this?

Thanks Fig ...wow that lesson will take some time to sink in, has my head spinning ...now back to SimulGreen ...sorry to hear it's discontinued - I was really liking it - my first test batches were hand stirred and came out fine - I did use 2% GSM for added stabilization & body. The emulsion was perfectly stable when I used Optipen Plus so ...there has to be some clash with the Leucidal SF MAX ...thanks for your response!
 
Back
Top