Alternatives for Palm oil! HARMFUL TO THE EARTH!

[Raha]

Dear Soap Makers!
A wonderful customer came up to be yesterday and gave me a talk about how harmful it is for us to be using palm oil. She said it's causing deforestation in Malaysia and Indonesia and causing extinction to orangutans ! I feel so upset that I have been causing harm to the earth via. my soaps! And I am sure many of you already knew this and have made wonderful soaps sans palm!

I make castile soaps with mostly olive oil then coconut and palm oils for a good lather and a hard bar. I use 27% OO 20% CO and 18% PO. Can I simply substitute my palm with coconut?

What are good alternatives for palm oil?

Thanks,
Raha

 

[carebear]

First off, everything is harmful to the earth. It's not a matter of stopping, but of reducing our footprint through our choices. But think about it - all orchards are on ground that was once wild, all processing uses resources and produces pollutants be they synthetic chemicals, heat, whatever, and so on. Heck, no matter what you choose it has to be grown, extracted, processed, packaged, shipped...

Anyway.

Your alternatives to palm are lard and tallow. Animal husbandry is said to be terribly horrible for the earth. Coconut oil is not really a substitute, and unless you get organic virgin coconut oil then you should know that your coconut oil is likely extracted with a solvent called hexanes which are thought to be pretty darned bad.

Not all palm is robbing orangutans of their homes - we now have access to sustainably grown palm oil.

There are no easy answers.

 

[Hazel]

Have you looked at this site for your palm oil?

http://www.soaperschoice.com/cgi-soaper ... d=$cart_id

 

[agriffin]

Yeah, I had another soaper come up to my booth a couple of weeks ago and give me an un-asked for lecture about how bad palm oil is and how they never use it. Blah blabity blah. I wasn't in the mood so just nodded my head and smiled.

I agree with Carebear. I also think it's something that has been over media-lized (is that a word?). There are much worse off things than using palm oil.

I have a hard time eating chicken. Google how chickens are treated for human consumption. Ugh.

Now there are free range chickens and all of that. So I try to find those type of products. I try to use sustainable palm oil.

There are no easy answers.

I think it's also becomming a huge marketing thing for some soap makers. "We don't use palm oil in our soap like other soaper's do. It kills orangutans. That's why you should buy from us." I see it on Etsy all the time.

ETA: To answer your questions...yes lard and tallow are great replacements for palm. High olive oil will make for a hard bar, which is why we use palm. Also hard butters like cocoa and shea, maybe add some beeswax.

With all of that said and if this is the route you want to take...there is a wonderful soap maker at http://www.lomondsoap.com/ whos site you should take a look at.

She used to be on this forum, but not sure if she still is. You can look at her ingrediants to get some ideas. She also sponsors an Orangutan which I think is awesome. She chooses to be a palm free soaper.

 

[Raha]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundtable ... e_Palm_Oil

Thanks for the link, Hazel. I will have to see if I can get sustainable palm oil in Jordan!

 

[Raha]

Thank you, Agriffin!
I'm in OO country! and I know a local bee keeper for the beeswax! And I'm sure I can get good shea butter from here. Will check out the link!

 

[honor435]

If you want to avoid palm good luck, it is in everything! cosmetics, baked goods, candies, cookies, cleaners, chips and crackers, and candles, just to name a few.
We really cant stop whats happened over there, it is a multi zillion $ business. My Mom is a world traveler and has been to those countries, the palm is how they live, this is their livlihood, many countries survive on the palm seeds. In Maylasia the harvest and sale is 70% of their jobs. The demand for palm is global, i dont think us small time soapers are going to stop it.
Anyways, just my opinion.

 

[Best Natural Soap]

Palm oil

I absolutely agree with all of you who say choose what you use responsibly. We can buy sustainable palm. There is no reason to boycott palm oil. Media sensationalism is rampant-- they need to find topics that create hype-- it drives their viewership and more viewers means more advertising dollars. Follow the money. Who profits by creating hype about palm oil? Media, and shortly after that, the soapers who want to follow that wave of consumers now looking for palm free products. Google every single one of your ingredients and read about them. Become informed, so that you can make good choices based on facts, and also so that you are prepared when someone confronts you with what they believe is true. It's up to us to do the research for ourselves, and make the best choices we can. if you can explain why you choose what you use, people will respect that you KNOW what you're talking about. Don't allow your customers to be the ones informing you, the soap expert, about your ingredients. You have to beat them to it and be prepared to share YOUR expertise about the topic.

 

[Simplyangelic]

If you want to avoid palm good luck, it is in everything! cosmetics, baked goods, candies, cookies, cleaners, chips and crackers, and candles, just to name a few.
We really cant stop whats happened over there, it is a multi zillion $ business. My Mom is a world traveler and has been to those countries, the palm is how they live, this is their livlihood, many countries survive on the palm seeds. In Maylasia the harvest and sale is 70% of their jobs. The demand for palm is global, i dont think us small time soapers are going to stop it.
Anyways, just my opinion.

Maybe not, but if we took that attitude to everything then there would NEVER be any changes to how things are done etc etc

Supporting programs were sustainable sources of palm oil are produced could be something you do, so you still get to use palm(which is a wonderful soaping ingredient), but you also get to have a clear(er) conscience.

The point Honor makes is true though, we may despair at the destructive nature of some palm oil production, but the people that work on these plantations have to earn a living too, which is why it would be my choice(if I used palm oil) to support the sustainable plantations, sponsor and Orangutang etc

 

[bodybym]

I have several soap that I make without palm oil for various reasons (it's a formulation issue not an anti-palm oil issue) and when customers give me the anti-palm speech I direct them to those (primarily my 100% castille and a couple where I use canola in place of the palm - this was before I "discovered" the joy of palm and had recipes that did not call for it).

I find that having a couple of alternatives helps me not to loose a sale.

 

[carebear]

while I use palm in some formulas, the vast majority of my soaps contain none. so if you are willing to make some bigger changes than just swapping one oil for another, you perhaps don't have to "replace" it.

 

[Bukawww]

your statement about making castile soap with mostly olive oil and other oils stood out to me. Castile soap is ONLY olive for the oil, no other oils, unless my research has lead me astray.

I dont' know how I feel about the palm oil issue...just like i don't know how I feel about eating grassfed beef only, etc. I want to make my products affordable to my customers (and therefore continue to be in business...well once I START being in business lol) but I want to support sustainable means as well. (and the issue of grassfed beef is just that eventually, the demand will be so great, that either a) they too will have to start using unsavory practices to keep up with supply b) price themselves out of the market or c) just NOT have enough to feed everyone which makes conventional farming/slaughtering necessary or 1/2 the world would starve - ACK! My brain hurts)

 

[bodybym]

Only in Europe does Castille have a legal definition and must be made with 100% olive oil. Here in the US Castille has come to mean almost any soap with olive oil in it (check it out next time you are in a natural grocery store - pick up a bar of "castille" soap and see what kind of oils are in it - it's usually a blend of oils).

I make soaps both with and without palm for a variety of reasons, but what I have found is that people who buy my soap are looking to support local business and have only had about 6 people ever ask/rant about palm oil.

 

[Hazel]

Re: Palm oil

I absolutely agree with all of you who say choose what you use responsibly. We can buy sustainable palm. There is no reason to boycott palm oil. Media sensationalism is rampant-- they need to find topics that create hype-- it drives their viewership and more viewers means more advertising dollars. Follow the money. Who profits by creating hype about palm oil? Media, and shortly after that, the soapers who want to follow that wave of consumers now looking for palm free products. Google every single one of your ingredients and read about them. Become informed, so that you can make good choices based on facts, and also so that you are prepared when someone confronts you with what they believe is true. It's up to us to do the research for ourselves, and make the best choices we can. if you can explain why you choose what you use, people will respect that you KNOW what you're talking about. Don't allow your customers to be the ones informing you, the soap expert, about your ingredients. You have to beat them to it and be prepared to share YOUR expertise about the topic.

Well said!

 

[Bukawww]

Only in Europe does Castille have a legal definition and must be made with 100% olive oil. Here in the US Castille has come to mean almost any soap with olive oil in it (check it out next time you are in a natural grocery store - pick up a bar of "castille" soap and see what kind of oils are in it - it's usually a blend of oils).

I make soaps both with and without palm for a variety of reasons, but what I have found is that people who buy my soap are looking to support local business and have only had about 6 people ever ask/rant about palm oil.

I guess thats odd to me...it isn't about the legality of it so much as when I see something labeled castille, I expect nothing but olive...but thats not a criticism of you or your business. I'm still relatively young in the soaping world I also have issue with all sorts of labeling stateside...it really bothers me that things can be left out or labeled as such when it is untrue. 0 Trans fat should be ZERO trans fat...not trace amounts, etc kwim?

 

[BakingNana]

Right on, BNS!! I printed off a study done in 1997 sponsored by Dept. of Health and Human Services done on castor oil, since every once in a while someone asks why I would use poison oil in soap. :roll:

 

[Best Natural Soap]

castor oil-- Yummy!!

Thanks BakingNana!
Poor castor oil has such a tainted reputation! I get the bugged out eyes look when people read "castor oil" on my ingredient list... I have to remind them that my soap is for external use only.
Even castor oil has a silver lining!

 

[Mackie]

Castor Oil

I don't know how poisonous Castor Oil is. In the 1930's when my Mum was young, Gran-ma would give all the children a dose of Castor Oil once a month "to clean out the worms!" :wink: I just know I love to use it in soaps and lotions and no bad rap is going to change my mind, just like I will continue to use palm oil. If anyone in Oz complains, they can start by giving up Tim-Tams!

 

[madpiano]

That's something that's quite close to my heart as well, as I love Orang-Utans and I think we, as soap makers, have a responsibility towards them as well.

I would love to be able to use more sustainable palm oil, but the only one I can get hold of easily and at a reasonable price is unrefined. Which is ok, but not all of my soaps need to be bright orange.

I have asked the supplier of my palm oil regarding the environmental issue and although they have not confirmed that they are fully sustainable, they are a large Malaysian Company and are determined to find a compromise which keeps the locals in work and saves the Orangs. As they are from the area, they do understand the issues the locals are facing much better and if anything, they would be my preferred supplier, sheer for the fact that mostly it's the companies that are re-selling the oil that's making a profit, not the locals. It's not just the Monkeys that need our help, people count as well. They need to live of something. If we stop buying palm from Malaysia/Indonesia, they will find another crop to replace it. Otherwise they starve.

I do like buying palm oil from Ghana, as it seems the best so far regarding political issues and environmental issues, but I need some refined stuff.

If you are buying "sustainable" palm oil now, where does it come from ? And what is the impact that production has locally ? Is it from South America where they have stolen people's land to make way for Palm Plantations ? Is it from a politically unstable country where your purchase of Palm Oil may finance a civil war and weapons or drugs ? Just because no Orangs were harmed, doesn't mean other "Orangs" (it's the indonesian/malaysian word for people) weren't harmed in the process.

What we can do as soap makers is fight for proper controlled palm oil from wherever and make sure people know about the plight of the Orang Utans and put pressure via publicity on the large companies to clean up their act. The amount we buy will never make a financial impact, but we can help to spread the word.

If you want to stop using palm oil completely, there are some recipes about, but you will have to use animal oils or hard butters instead - one alienates the vegan shoppers the other makes your soap more expensive. You already have the link to Lomond Soap, I have had some of hers and it is lovely !

 

[BakingNana]

Great points. I'm in the states; I've begun buying my PO from Soapers Choice (Columbus Foods). Organic and sustainable. It's a few cents more, but to me it's worth it. Have not taken delivery on it yet, so I haven't tried it to date.

...and the way I understand it from what I've read through NIH, ricin (the poison in castor) is not oil soluble and virtually none remains in the oil. It's the 'virtually' part that would keep me from ingesting it.