Aloe, Coconut milk, Sugar, Citric Acid and Sodium Lactate - All of them - Me at my wits' end - batter going red

[Orla]

Hello all,
Here's the thing: the problem is my batter going red (i.e. I assume coconut milk burning). Now I know that Shunt, Irish Lass and several others on this forum put their sugar/citric acid solution directly into their oils. And then they add the lye. And they have NO PROBLEMS! I try to do what they do and I have one hand on the thermometer ready to shove the batter into the fridge or freezer. If I keep the lye with the oils stable between 28° and 30° (82.5-86°F) then I pull this tricky operation off. Perhaps. Can I just give all the necessary details?
My masterbatch lye is aloe juice (nothing in it except minuscule amount of CA). A dream. No problem.
For the remaining water, I use coconut milk - frozen into icecubes. Adding the lye/aloe must be done slowly. (Funny thing, those icepacks they leave in the bottom drawer of freezers have suddenly proven useful. I sit the coconut milk container on one of them while pouring in the lye solution.) Oh, and I add the SL.
So now we are entering into the climactic fourth act of this play which will determine the outcome.
The oils are all at room temperature - let's say 28° (82.5°F). Now what Shunt and Irish Lass do is they have already poured the CA/sugar into these oils,when they were still at a higher temperature and if necessary they have stickblended them to make absolutely sure they've all blended. And so they pour the lye solution into this premixed Oil/CA/Sugar.
Now, when I do this (dramatic ominous music in the background), I have to go slowly, slowly, slowly. And I never cry victory too soon because when I think I've pulled it off (batter still not red), suddenly BAM! dark red.
I think I have explored all the variables on this. Because another version, for example, is having carefully and successfully added CA/Sugar to the Aloe/Lye/SL (icepacks galore) and then added this solution carefully into the oils, there again, WHAM, we have the dark red.
Frustratingly, this does not happen all the time. FIVE TIMES OUT OF SIX maybe things go ok, gingerly but ok. Thus the obsession with the 28° C. But I can't reliably keep things in that limited temperature range.
Does anyone have some magic solution that I haven't come up with? Or am I trying to pull off the impossible? I don't quite understand because Aloe has no sugar, and sure, there's sugar in Coconut milk but others also add sugar and coconut milk
PS I'm vegetarian and no-palm, not a militant, just for myself.

 

[shunt2011]

I add my sugar in my lye not my soap batch unless I forget, then I'll dissolve it in a bit of water and then add to my oils and don't use CA. I use SL and add that to my cooled lye as well. So, I think you have me confused with someone else. I add my milks to my oils before my lye always. It turns a bit orange at first but then goes to a light beige. So, not going to be much help.

 

[Orla]

Sorry Shunt, yes, I think I may have got things messed up. I saw that you add your milk to your oils. I read your post and tried that alternative also. Masterbatch lye gently added to oils with the coconut milk. I'm loathe to abandon the CA as the water here is extremely hard. Until the CA-generation soaps are up and running, the sink in this house is destined to remain in a more or less permanent state of grubbiness...

 

[SeaSuds]

I add the sugar, citric acid, sodium lactate etc to my water (aloe juice) and dissolve until clear before I add the lye. Once the lye has cooled enough i add to my oils which has the coconut milk already blended in (split method). Sometimes my lye water goes yellow because of the aloe but the batter is 'normal' at the end of the process. When I use honey, which I also add to the water before the lye, the lye solution will go orange but all is well by the time it's mixed in thoroughly with the oils and ready to pour. Does the red colour go away by the time you pour?

 

[Orla]

OMIGOD Seasuds! You have no idea! I am so excited by the prospect of testing that method. I think I might be able to pull it off. Ooof, ooof, ooof. Better not get too excited, but I'm going give that a serious shot. To answer your question, no, I don't think it does entirely go away. It interferes with my colours. In a fit of frustration I once tried open combat with TD... with the obvious results. Thanks, though, thanks, thanks. Still have some hours of work ahead of me but definitely going to give that method my best efforts this evening...

ah, Seasuds, sorry just a question. I gather that you have not masterbatched your lye/aloe. But you are adding coconut milk. SO, when you add the lye to aloe/sugar/CA/SL, the aloe that is there is 1:1 relative to the NaOH. My sugar:water is 1:1 (with 3/5 CA). So I'll be adding the aloe/NaOh to that pretty small quantity of water. Oh to hell with it, I'll try! thank you again

 

[Orla]

Well. That wasn't a roaring success as such. Photo one is I'd say less than a minute after I've added a few drops of the Lye/aloe solution into the Sugar/CA solution (9 Sugar (icing sugar/sorbitol, 6 Citric Acid, 9 demineralised water). I immediately stopped and slammed the two of them in the fridge till they went down to 13 and then I mixed them. Violently, in a bad-humoured way. And then I poured them into the oils/coconut milk (29°). I wasn't harbouring any fanciful hopes at this stage anyhow. But how can I test colours with batter that is this colour? I've seen darker reds, but nonetheless. Maybe if I froze the Sugar/CA/Water solution? But I'm still amazed that anyone can mix a lye solution with EDIT SUGAR ... All of my empirical testing seems to suggest that it's pretty much impossible...

 

[SeaSuds]

Hmmm...My solutions are often that orange colour just like yours, especially when I use honey or beer (sugar reacting with the heat) but the batter turns light tan once all the ingredients are mixed together. If this is not happening for you could it be unknown additives in your ingredients? Are you using icing sugar or sorbitol because they are different and icing sugar has additives? Are there additives in your aloe vera juice? Is your lye fresh and from a reputable supplier?

 

[Todd Ziegler]

OMIGOD Seasuds! You have no idea! I am so excited by the prospect of testing that method. I think I might be able to pull it off. Ooof, ooof, ooof. Better not get too excited, but I'm going give that a serious shot. To answer your question, no, I don't think it does entirely go away. It interferes with my colours. In a fit of frustration I once tried open combat with TD... with the obvious results. Thanks, though, thanks, thanks. Still have some hours of work ahead of me but definitely going to give that method my best efforts this evening...

ah, Seasuds, sorry just a question. I gather that you have not masterbatched your lye/aloe. But you are adding coconut milk. SO, when you add the lye to aloe/sugar/CA/SL, the aloe that is there is 1:1 relative to the NaOH. My sugar:water is 1:1 (with 3/5 CA). So I'll be adding the aloe/NaOh to that pretty small quantity of water. Oh to hell with it, I'll try! thank you again

You might try all those ingredients in powder form. I use goat milk powder and aloe powder and I add them to my oils and mix them in. I only add SL to my lye water after it has cooled down. By using the powders I avoid the hassle of ice cubes or anything turning orange. I don't have any problems with over heating and the soaps seemed to be just as good as using the liquid ingredients.

 

[Orla]

Hmmm...My solutions are often that orange colour just like yours, especially when I use honey or beer (sugar reacting with the heat) but the batter turns light tan once all the ingredients are mixed together. If this is not happening for you could it be unknown additives in your ingredients? Are you using icing sugar or sorbitol because they are different and icing sugar has additives? Are there additives in your aloe vera juice? Is your lye fresh and from a reputable supplier?

Hmmm...My solutions are often that orange colour just like yours, especially when I use honey or beer (sugar reacting with the heat) but the batter turns light tan once all the ingredients are mixed together. If this is not happening for you could it be unknown additives in your ingredients? Are you using icing sugar or sorbitol because they are different and icing sugar has additives? Are there additives in your aloe vera juice? Is your lye fresh and from a reputable supplier?

Thank you SeaSuds. Yes, there is 1.5% starch in the icing sugar I use, but Kenna of soapmaking something actually noticed that the starch improved lather. That may well be true as others have talked about the water from making rice similarly improving lather. My aloe vera has only some tiny tiny fraction of CA. I think I might continue my empirical research and test putting the quantity I need of the sugar/CA/water solution in the freezer for a bit. Let it freeze up a bit before I introduce the lye solution. (PS You're right, I have no idea what sorbitol is. I decided it must be some American term for icing sugar!!!) Thanks Seasuds. Thanks so much!

 

[Orla]

You might try all those ingredients in powder form. I use goat milk powder and aloe powder and I add them to my oils and mix them in. I only add SL to my lye water after it has cooled down. By using the powders I avoid the hassle of ice cubes or anything turning orange. I don't have any problems with over heating and the soaps seemed to be just as good as using the liquid ingredients.

Thank you Todd Ziegler. I've been "listening" to you on this forum! But you don't use sugar - at least that's what I gather from what you say. I can pull off the coconut milk and aloe juice fine, and SL is such a well-behaved little additive! You're right though, I might up end up just caving in and dumping the sugar idea. Maybe just tackle CA and see if on its own it's a trouble-maker or not. I'm off to try my sugar/CA/water freezing experiment!!!

 

[Todd Ziegler]

Thank you Todd Ziegler. I've been "listening" to you on this forum! But you don't use sugar - at least that's what I gather from what you say. I can pull off the coconut milk and aloe juice fine, and SL is such a well-behaved little additive! You're right though, I might up end up just caving in and dumping the sugar idea. Maybe just tackle CA and see if on its own it's a trouble-maker or not. I'm off to try my sugar/CA/water freezing experiment!!!

Good luck. It really boils down to personal choice and wether it works well for you.

Just a little note SL, goats milk, beer powder, Aloe powder or honey powder all have sugar in them, just not at a 100% level like table sugar.

 

[SeaSuds]

Aw, I hope you find a solution to your issues. Just on a side note, Kenna discusses sorbitol in this article: Updated: Lather Lovers Additive Tests, One Year Later! • Modern Soapmaking

It's a great lather booster and you should be able to get it from Amazon. I wouldn't use aloe and sorbitol together though, just one or the other, same with honey and beer etc as that might be too much sugar.