Advice needed from experienced FO users in CP please!

[Abeltran]

Hi all!
After months of making CP soap with EO's, I realized one thing: I was spending a booty-load of money! EO's are EXPENSIVE!!! So I've decided to venture out into the unknown and give FO's a try. I ordered about 12 different scents that appealed to me and came with high reviews from users (ie: no major problems with seizing, riceing, acceleration, discoloration, etc. reported). That being said though, I'm STILL freaking out, as FO's are completely new to me, and I've been reading "horror stories" of whole batches going awry! I'm desperately trying to avoid this, but despite my best google searches, some questions I have still remain unclear. I'm hoping others with experience in FO's wouldn't mind offering their good advice! Here are some of my biggest concerns/questions: My previous "go to" CP recipe (one I've had great results with), is a recipe that consists of 34oz of base oils, 4.6oz lye (approx 6% SF), and 10.5oz of liquid. I've found this liquid amount to be my personal "Goldilocks" (sp?), as it's not too much, not too little, but just right! However, I've read that when using FO's, one should use the maximum amount of liquid to lye ratio. I've also read statements where this simply isn't true though, so now I'm having doubts as to if I need to increase my liquid amount or not. Another concern is what temp I should soap at. Previously I soaped anywhere between 110 to 120°F, but much of my searching has concluded that this is too high for using FO's, and I've gotten mixed reviews from people who say to soap at room temp, to others who say to keep lye and oil temps around 100°F when using FO's. Room temp to 100°F is a fairly large margin, so I'm wondering exactly what temp SHOULD I stick with? Some other questions I've been wondering are: At what point do I actually add my FO? Should this be done at very light trace and/or just before pouring? Can one mix two FO's together, and if so, can they be mixed prior to adding to the soap mixture, or do they need to be added in separately at the appropriate time? Can I use honey in a recipe if I use an FO, or will this end with disastrous results? Is it ok to use a recipe containing 5% castor with FO's? I'm just a total anxiety-ridden mess of questions and nerves here, and I'm hoping someone with immense patience with me and knowledge in this area can help! Any advice others could lend would be so incredibly appreciated!! Thank you so much for reading, as well as any help and guidance you can offer!

 

[Susie]

Firstly, you should use the amount of the that the calculator calls for. Not relying on any other system.

Then, the amount of liquid required depends on your amount of lye, and if you want to swirl, again, use a lye calculator.

Next, you have an awesome FO review thread right on this site. I am on my tablet, so no I can't link it, but it's in the fragrance oil forum.

Finally, you can combine FO's, EO's, sugar, honey, milks, aloe, or whatever you would like.

 

[toxikon]

I (and I'm sure many others) have never had a problem with FOs. I've never had ricing or any major acceleration. I've tried dozens of FOs and never had a problem with any! So keep that in mind and take the horror stories with a grain of salt. I always check the reviews before buying to ensure I'm buying something cooperative.

You do not need more water in your recipes to allow for FOs. I use a 35% Lye Concentration with my recipes and still have plenty of time to play with my batter.

Here's my FO soap process:

- Melt oils and add FO directly to the oils and blend well. My melted oils tend to be around 100-110 degrees, as I melt the hard oils until just melted then add the cool liquid oils to the mix.
- Add my room temperate lye solution.
- Stickblend ONLY UNTIL EMULSION. Only a few minutes at most. Not trace. I like having a nice liquidy batter to work with.
- Switch to a silicon spatula and divide and colour.
- Depending on the design I'm going for, sometimes I will pour it at a super light trace, other times I will want a thicker batter so I will mix more.

Acceleration is very recipe-dependent. Yes, some FOs do accelerate, but as long as you don't overdo it with the stickblender, most are very manageable to work with.

 

[IrishLass]

First, you can relax and take a deep happy breath. For what it's worth, I only use FOs in my soap and I normally soap between 110-120F, and with a water discount to boot (a 33% lye concentration, but sometimes even a steeper water discount), and my soap comes out great with no issues.

The trick to success with FOs is very simple- become friends with an online FO review board. We have our own review spreadsheet on the forum here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet.../edit?authkey=CMTEtswL&authkey=CMTEtswL#gid=0 and there is also this one: http://soapscentreview.obisoap.ca/

Reading reviews of others that have gone before you and have soaped certain FOs from whatever vendors you are interested in will help you be able to pick winners that don't accelerate or discolor or cause problems in your soap (and help you to avoid troublemakers). That's what I always do before I buy an FO. I check them out first on the review boards. And if I can't find a review for a particular FO, I'll just ask here on the forum.

For what it's worth, if my FO is a well-behaved one, I add it directly to my warm oils/fats before adding my lye solution. If it's a frisky one, I'll add it at light trace and won't plan on doing any intricate swirls. If it's a known rascally seizer that can't be tamed even with the addition of a full-water amount, I'll HP it.


IrishLass

 

[lionprincess00]

Hi there! I will try to help you
1. I do not have your exact recipe so I cannot run it through a lye calculator. That said, it is best to use lye concentration as opposed to water as a percent of oils on the soap calc calculator. I would need to know your lye concentration per your recipe to give you advice about fragrance oils.
2. Most people tend to stick to around 33% lye concentration, but I like to use 40% which means low water. Some fragrance oils do perform extremely well under low water and will last an hour at emulsion without going into trace. But as a soaper that has experimented with this, I would recommend staying probably more at 33%. I could help you out if I know the vendor that you purchased a fragrance oil from and the exact name of those fragrance oils. Otherwise I would say just stick around the 33 to 35% lye concentration.
3. I am no expert on temperatures because I quit measuring after soaping for about 2 months. I haven't measured in the last several years my temperatures. It does seem that you are soaping hotter than me. To put it into perspective, I melt all of my oils and then try to get my stainless steel bowl that they were melted in to a touchable temperature. What I mean is when you touch the outside of the bowl, it doesn't burn your hand and it just feels a little warm but everything is still fluid and melted. I wait for my lye water to cool completely on the exterior of the stainless steel bowl before I start mixing. That does help it not accelerate. So maybe try a little lower temp but keepping it fluid so you dont have false trace.
4. I stick blend in bursts my lye water into my oils until it becomes emulsion. I never go beyond emulsion. I then split my batter up, color my different portions if I'm going to swirl, and at last minute eyeball my fragrance oil into each portion and whisk it. I never stick blend my colors nor my fragrances.
5. I preweigh my fo into a seperate container, and if I want to mix fragrances together I weigh them out in the same container. So if I want to split three different fragrances and it calls for 1 Oz I would do .33 Oz each and then just kind of mix it together before I pour it into the individual batter portions that were pre colored. Like I mentioned, I preweigh the fo but eyeball pour it into each individually colored portion.
6. Honey will accelerate some, but it is going to depend on how much you use. Personally I use 1 tbsp of sugar per pound of oil and don't have any problems with acceleration. I do know honey is more of an accelerant than sugar, at least I think so.

So if you want to list where you got your fragrances from and the names of them, I might be able to help you out with your water. Again I would also need your full recipe with lye concentration.

Hope this helps some!

Oh, and thx to irishlass for the fo doc link! I was going to go grab that after I posted.
Edit, because I don't measure my temps, I very well may be soaping @ 110 to 120 degrees. After reafing IL full post, and she soaps at around your temps, I'd follow her advice with your temperatures.

Oh, another edit! Castor @5% is no biggie. I've used up to 7% with no problems. I typically use 5% now. I believe carolyn notices a difference in acceleration with it, but I don't think it is significant enough to get worked up over

 

[earlene]

Abeltran,

my first recommendation would be to do very small test batches for each new FO you have purchased. Make them as you normally already do and keep notes about how each FO performs. If no issues arise for a particular FO, using your usual method, then I would note that and continue making as normal.

For the ones that do give you problems, you have only done a small batch, so not a major disaster. Then you can start those troubleshooting methods for each particular FO. Use small batches until you find the solution that works best with each one. Take notes along the way.

Some soapers here on the forum, add their FO's to the batch oils, mixing the oil & FO together thoroughly BEFORE adding the lye solution. The reason I started following suit was because I kept forgetting to add my fragrances when I left it to later. Some say this helps prevent some of those problematic issues, but it doesn't always. But it may give you more time to adjust to whatever troubleshooting methods are needed.

I do not have long-term soaping experience with or without FOs. I've only been making bar soap for a little over two years and also started out with EOs first. But a little over a year ago, I did start using FOs, buying some from de-stashes and just went with the flow. I learned somewhat by trial and error at first, then started looking up what to expect from particular FOs from a particular vendor. When I remember to do this it helps me be prepared for certain issues so I can adapt as needed. And I usually avoid making large batches of any recipe, so when the issues do occur, it is usually not disastrous.

I have not (or at least I don't recall) read about increasing liquid in soap when working with a particular FO, so it would have never occurred to me to do so. I wonder what effect that would have?

As far as changing a recipe just because it contains an FO instead of an EO, I have not done that. If an FO is going to misbehave, I don't see how altering the recipe is going to prevent that. I think it has more to do with the track record of a particular FO in soap, than it has to do with the other ingredients in the soap.

 

[dixiedragon]

Take a deep breath. It'll be okay!

What company and FOs are they? Not sure where you are located, but in the US I recommend Brambleberry and Nurture for first time FO buyers. They are Soap People first. They also have a review function on their website.

If you have a paid email address, you can get a membership to the Soap Scent Review Board. Very extensive reviews! Also check our Fragrance Review Chart - no membership needed.

Posting your recipe would be helpful.

I like to get 8 oz plastic deli cups, because my stick blender will fit in there. I put 1 cup of soap and 1 or 2 tsp of FO in each cup, then blast with the stick blender to mix. I blast the stick blender in warm water between FOs to clean it off. I have some strips of card board and I write the name of the FO and the date and stick it in the cup. Then, set aside for 6 weeks.

 

[BrewerGeorge]

I will reinforce what the others said. Just use FO's the same way you use EO's as far as temperature, water, etc are concerned. As for acceleration, there are EO's that accelerate - like clove. Just use the resources available to you and choose FO's that don't speed up the process.

You'll be fine.

 

[artemis]

So many of us starting with "First..." My "First" would be do small batches so you don't feel like you're wasting all that soap. My "Second" is relax and have fun with it!

 

[Dahila]

all flowery ones accelerate, Lilac in bloom is so fast ........even with low temps, smells divine but difficult to work with

 

[reinbeau]

Actually all florals do not misbehave. Best to just check reviews.

 

[mx5inpenn]

all flowery ones accelerate, Lilac in bloom is so fast ........even with low temps, smells divine but difficult to work with

Give ng's lilac a try. It does accelerate a bit, but it is very manageable for a floral.

 

[soaperwoman]

I never had problems with f.o.s till I bought those cheap collections on ebay. They were cheap and nearly all of the 32 bottles I bought caused ricing or leaching. The quality of the f.o.s has a lot to do with how it reacts. I have also found that some companies scents last better in the soaps ( I love, love, love VCS). Any scent can be mixed together. You can even mix e.o.s with f.o.s I usually add more f.o.s and e.o.s than most recipes call for, I use the smell test. If I can't smell it in the batter then I add more. It's not very scientific but it works. I always add my scents after trace and have never worried about temp. I use room temperature method though so I don't ever check temps anyway.

 

[Abeltran]

I have been trying to reply, with a heart FULL of graditude to each and every one you for the last two days! My hugest apokogizes for looking like an ungrateful jerk!! When I originally posted the question, I was on the computer, which my husband disconnected due to our final move to our new home across town. I thought nothing of it, until I tried to respond back to all the WONDERFUL replies I received from my cell phone. It seems my cell and this site do not agree however, and even now I am desperately trying to get this very slow moving message through to all you FANTASTIC individuals before it glitches on me again and deletes it (this is my 3rd time trying to write THIS , and it has taken me about 10 mins just to get this far! Before my crappy phone knocks me off again, I just wanted to say THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH to all of you!! I wanted to do that individually, but it seems like I will have to pester my husband to put the computer back together when he gets home from work before I will be able to do so! It was just REALLY bothering me not being able to express my gratitude, so I am struggling with my phone to cooperate with me long enough for me to say "thank you"! For now, I must keep this short and sweet, before my phone knocks me off again and I am forced to re-type this for a third time, but it was important to me that you all knew how incredibly thankful I am for all your help and wisdom!! I was a bundle of nerves, and you all jumped in to help a stranger with invaluable advice and such kind and knowledgeable help! That means so much to me! For now I just wanted you all to know your help and guidance was received with heartfelt gratitude, and I promise as soon as my husband sets up our home computer (which I would probably mess up horribly if I attempted myself!), that I will respond individually and give each and every one of you FANTASTIC individuals the gratitude you deserve (and which I was hoping to give in the first place)! This is the farthest I've gotten in trying to respond back, so I better not push my luck, but I cannot tell each and every one of you enough how grateful I am for the wise wisdom and going out of your way to help me! Hopefully soon, I will be able to do so individually and properly. THANK YOU!!!

 

[earlene]

Don't worry, Abeltran. Been there, done that with other devices that don't cooperate well with this site. A total pain, I know.

Enjoy your new home!

 

[Logansama]

I generally only use FOs now. Look at reviews, different suppliers, etc. Some, like Brambleberry, give a brief description that includes discoloration, whether or not it accelerates trace or has any quirks. Remember, anything with vanilla will discolor, so factor that into your color design. I just made a batch of Turkish Mocha fragranced soap, so knowing it would go brown, I used ground cocoa to make some even darker, then left some unscented to do some fun swirling.

Florals do sometimes accelerate, just have a backup plan for coloring and try to soap at a lower temp. If you KNOW the fragrance will accelerate and you still want to use it, decrease your water discount. Spice scents can heat up and accelerate also.

Look for tried and true fragrances. I love Brambleberry's Energy, Kumquat, and they have others they list as "clear" that don't discolor or accelerate at all.

Keep your temps down, I generally keep mine in the low 100s and within 10 degrees of each other.

Look for a fragrance calculator. I generally use .7% as a rule of thumb but some are stronger or weaker.

Again, try to find reviews by users. Sweet Cakes has a White Egyptian Musk that I LOVE. It accelerates. I wrote to the company to ask about the acceleration issue and they insist that it doesn't accelerate. It does. So learn to work with those types of scents. I just do single color design, low temp and move quick.

NEVER stick blend fragrance. I don't care what some of the tutorials show, unless you are 100% sure how a FO behaves, don't add it at the start and don't stick blend it. Use a whisk.

Test first, make a small batch and do a test run. Don't judge a fragrance out of bottle. They change as they cure.

Learn to trouble shoot, there are quite a few tutorials on "what to do if--" and then have a plan B ready.

Don't be afraid to experiment with blends! Just remember to take notes. I accidentally made the BEST BLEND EVER once and now I have no clue what it was. LOL!

 

[soaperwoman]

fo's

I use a room temp method to make soap and I have never had to add fo's at any particular temp and it seems fine. You can add sugar with fo's. Sugars are more responsible for soap accelerations than fo's.

You can absolutely mix fo's together with no problem. I always add my fo's after a light trace.

The amount of FO's can change depending on the strength of the scent. You do not need to change the water amount at all but you can add too much fragrance which can cause seeping because fo's do not soponofy. Usually in a standard size batch is 1 to 2 ozs. I personally use the smell test to add more if necessary. Many fo's will loose their scent in the curing process. To me that is just trial and error. Check to make sure your fo's don't have vanilla, that really speeds up trace.

Finally find a brand you like and stick with them. Confidence is a big plus when making soap. Finally always be prepared to move like the wind when your soap starts to harden to fast. Move, move, move and have your tools at the ready. If your soap rices, stir it often while pouring and this will usually smooth the batter out.

 

[Logansama]

Actually all florals do not misbehave. Best to just check reviews.

Sweet cakes has an incredible lilac that behaves. They also have a Honeysuckle blend (I think Honeysuckle Heaven) that's gorgeous. It does accelerate so I mix my FO with some of the soaping oils and that helps a lot.