Advice needed: CP soap turning soft when used as hand soap.

[BB25]

I’m looking for advice. I have tried many recipes in my time of making soap and pretty much all of them last brilliantly in the shower with both my husband and I using them daily. They go right down to the last slither but the same bars used on my sink by 5 people daily are getting to about 1/3 down and suddenly become soft, so much so that I can press my finger into the centre of squish and it sinks quite deeply. My youngest child really delights in doing this which I’ve tried to stop happening but the temptation is strong for him!!!
Overnight they are drying out well and the squish does go but at weekends they’ve got a good layer of squish all round as they get so much usage.

This particular batch (500g) was cured for 8 weeks, I used 1.4:1 water:lye. Put through gel phase using heating mat. Added 2.5g salt, 5g sugar, 5g citric acid, 5g kaolin clay, 15g essential oil.

And has:

45% olive oil (EVOO)
10 % cocoa
15 % Mango
20 % coconut
5% avocado oil
5 % Castor

I understand I could help with the issue by adding lard or tallow and I’ve made soaps using these and this does remove the problem as they last amazingly on the sink but I prefer the feel of soaps made with plant based ingredients, tallow made my skin feel dry?? Also, most of my friends are adverse to tallow and lard so my immediate audience wants vegan.
But can anyone see any blazingly obvious thing I’m doing wrong? I see so many soap sellers using recipes with less hardness/longevity than mine, in fact I know of one soap maker (very successful) using a recipe that I’ve tried and the same thing happens so I am actually driving myself mad wondering why I can’t get my soaps to where they should be. Or am I expecting too much? Is this what plant-based soaps are like full stop?

I have tried sodium lactate and switched back to salt as didn’t notice a massive difference.

I have taken my soaps down to 1.2:1 which reduced cure time but eventually the same thing happened with the soap on the sink.

I have switched between pomace and EVOO and other than time to trace I haven’t noticed a huge difference in the end product either.

I honestly don’t know what else I can try. Should I go down the stearic acid route???

I love making soap so much but honestly this issue is driving me bonkers. Sorry for the long and wordy post but I can only vent so much to my husband before I lose his attention for the millionth time!

Thanks in advance!

I should also add that I have an abundance of different soap dishes that I’ve also tried and they are all free draining and the soap is well elevated…..

 

[not_ally]

I think you've already identified the issue, ie; the soap gets used so much over the weekend it doesn't really get the chance to dry out. One thing, @KiwiMoose is a vegan soaper here, she might have tips for you. I know that she uses soy wax (as I understand it, hydrogenated soy oil, not a wax per se), IIRC that is something she likes for hardening. Do you have access to that?

 

[KiwiMoose]

Sorry for laughing - your comment about your husband made me do that. Mine hears so much about my soap pondering and politely nods while not listening.

Yes - I'm guessing your issue is that you need more palmitic/stearic in the recipe. So unless you're prepared to pay the cost of higher amounts of cocoa and mango butter (and I'm guessing you're also palm-free?) your only alternative is soy wax. I would also suggest that you cure them a lot longer before putting them into circulation, as that will also help. Try six months.

https://scentssoapsandcandles.co.uk/product/nature-wax-c-3-soy-container-wax/

 

[lsg]

You can also use a soap-saver soap holder that keeps the soap on a raised surface.

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree with Kiwi that you might want to think about raising the palmitic and stearic acid (P+S) content in your recipe. That will help your soap be less soluble in water.

According to my calculator, your recipe has about 25% P+S content. Maybe shoot for 30% or possibly even 35%?

I'd make a gradual change of 1-3% more P+S at a time to evaluate how you like the soap with this type of change. Too much P+S has downsides too.

But even then, I suspect the bar at the sink isn't ever going to be as long lived as the bar in the shower. The sink bar is staying too wet for too long. But a higher P+S content and a generous cure will help.

 

[Ephemerella]

I make an animal-product-free soap and notice the same thing, a high-level squish factor for the hand soap at the basin, while great performance for the exact same soap from the exact same batch when used in the shower.

I've tried a multitude of soap dishes (and am even working on my own creation now). As a frequent hand-washer myself, the basin bars just never get that good 24-hour drying time.

I've combated this by cutting a regular bar in thirds to make a "guest" sized bar for hand washing use. A smaller size with more blocky dimensions allows it to stand up on end vertically like a little skyscraper in the early days and dry more thoroughly in less time. The small bar also gets used down faster, of course, so it never gets a chance to start soaking up and holding on to moisture like a larger bar would over the course of days and multiple wettings per day.

As an aside, for an even harder bar, I have considered including soy wax a la @KiwiMoose

 

[BB25]

It’s funny- I wrote a reply to you all thanking you for your advice and it’s not shown up. Very odd!
Anyway, I’m very grateful to you all for your words of wisdom. I returned the soap I was testing back to the studio to cure for longer and replaced it with one which had been curing for 12 weeks and it’s definitely holding up better on the sink so ultimately I think it is simply a curing time issue rather than my recipe not working so great. With all that said however I have spent the past few days tweaking and trying to increase my S&P amounts, getting it up to 30 so I’ll see how I get on with my batches I make tomorrow and report back in due course.

I’ve attached a photo of one of my soaps and what happens to the outside at the weekends when they’re used heavily just for reference.

On another note, the tallow bars I made over 6 months ago no longer appear to be drying my skin so I think again it was simply that I was testing them too soon before they’d had chance to mellow and improve through crystallisation.

I am happy to use tallow if I can as I think it’s pretty amazing to use something that’s a waste product but I’m not sure how my vegan and vegetarian friends will find it???

Thanks again for your support. I’ve decided to become a supporting member to show gratitude to you all and this brilliant resource

 

[BB25]

I make an animal-product-free soap and notice the same thing, a high-level squish factor for the hand soap at the basin, while great performance for the exact same soap from the exact same batch when used in the shower.

I've tried a multitude of soap dishes (and am even working on my own creation now). As a frequent hand-washer myself, the basin bars just never get that good 24-hour drying time.

I've combated this by cutting a regular bar in thirds to make a "guest" sized bar for hand washing use. A smaller size with more blocky dimensions allows it to stand up on end vertically like a little skyscraper in the early days and dry more thoroughly in less time. The small bar also gets used down faster, of course, so it never gets a chance to start soaking up and holding on to moisture like a larger bar would over the course of days and multiple wettings per day.

As an aside, for an even harder bar, I have considered including soy wax a la @KiwiMoose

Good advice about cutting the soap in half. My husband and I were debating what would hold less water- smaller or larger bars and then I came across a post on here where someone actually worked out the area of soap in contact with water and scientifically explained which was better but for the life of me I can’t find the link but I do believe that larger bars hold less water. I’ll keep searching for it and post the link if I find it, if indeed you’re even remotely interested I’m going to cut my bars in half though and see if that’s better for the children as they’re always complaining that they’re too big for their hands anyway!

I think you've already identified the issue, ie; the soap gets used so much over the weekend it doesn't really get the chance to dry out. One thing, @KiwiMoose is a vegan soaper here, she might have tips for you. I know that she uses soy wax (as I understand it, hydrogenated soy oil, not a wax per se), IIRC that is something she likes for hardening. Do you have access to that?

I had a look today and can see that soy wax is an option to me so depending on how my soap experiments go tomorrow will be the deciding factor if to try adding soy eventually!

Sorry for laughing - your comment about your husband made me do that. Mine hears so much about my soap pondering and politely nods while not listening.

Yes - I'm guessing your issue is that you need more palmitic/stearic in the recipe. So unless you're prepared to pay the cost of higher amounts of cocoa and mango butter (and I'm guessing you're also palm-free?) your only alternative is soy wax. I would also suggest that you cure them a lot longer before putting them into circulation, as that will also help. Try six months.

https://scentssoapsandcandles.co.uk/product/nature-wax-c-3-soy-container-wax/

Honestly I think my husband has developed a series of automatic responses once I start talking soap. He’s very sweet and supportive and is very good a guiding me but technically he’s stumped making me ever so grateful for this forum!

I agree with Kiwi that you might want to think about raising the palmitic and stearic acid (P+S) content in your recipe. That will help your soap be less soluble in water.

According to my calculator, your recipe has about 25% P+S content. Maybe shoot for 30% or possibly even 35%?

I'd make a gradual change of 1-3% more P+S at a time to evaluate how you like the soap with this type of change. Too much P+S has downsides too.

But even then, I suspect the bar at the sink isn't ever going to be as long lived as the bar in the shower. The sink bar is staying too wet for too long. But a higher P+S content and a generous cure will help.

Thank you for this advice. After playing around I’ve managed to get it to 30 so I’ll make some bars up tomorrow with some variations and see how these hold up in a few months time.

 

[not_ally]

Hooray that you're now a supporting member, I hope you spend a lot of time here and get full use of your membership! It really is such a helpful place, plus it saves you from being a social pariah because you can drone on unendingly about soap and we will think it is great (unlike the non-soapers in your life, who will get that stricken look and itchy feet once you start) Welcome officially!

 

[Ephemerella]

I’ve attached a photo of one of my soaps and what happens to the outside at the weekends when they’re used heavily just for reference.

I find your photo strangely fascinating... now I want to lay a bar in a damp sink for a day and squish it on purpose.

 

[not_ally]

When my nieces were little I would make them melt and pour soaps and they would painstakingly drown them, squish them, then try to stuff them down the drain. I was forbidden from bringing soap into the house for about five years ....

 

[BB25]

When my nieces were little I would make them melt and pour soaps and they would painstakingly drown them, squish them, then try to stuff them down the drain. I was forbidden from bringing soap into the house for about five years ....

That’s so funny. Got me thinking, perhaps I should just ban my children from the house

I find your photo strangely fascinating... now I want to lay a bar in a damp sink for a day and squish it on purpose.

I must admit, the temptation to squish is pretty strong…….can see why my children do it!!!

 

[janesathome]

It’s funny- I wrote a reply to you all thanking you for your advice and it’s not shown up. Very odd!
Anyway, I’m very grateful to you all for your words of wisdom. I returned the soap I was testing back to the studio to cure for longer and replaced it with one which had been curing for 12 weeks and it’s definitely holding up better on the sink so ultimately I think it is simply a curing time issue rather than my recipe not working so great. With all that said however I have spent the past few days tweaking and trying to increase my S&P amounts, getting it up to 30 so I’ll see how I get on with my batches I make tomorrow and report back in due course.

I’ve attached a photo of one of my soaps and what happens to the outside at the weekends when they’re used heavily just for reference.

On another note, the tallow bars I made over 6 months ago no longer appear to be drying my skin so I think again it was simply that I was testing them too soon before they’d had chance to mellow and improve through crystallisation.

I am happy to use tallow if I can as I think it’s pretty amazing to use something that’s a waste product but I’m not sure how my vegan and vegetarian friends will find it???

Thanks again for your support. I’ve decided to become a supporting member to show gratitude to you all and this brilliant resource

There’s something about a bar of soap that is a leeeetle bit soft, that inspires kids to see just how squishy it can get! Add water and add fun!
I’m happy you may have found a solution with the longer cure. Thanks to Deanna and her wonderful Soapy Stuff articles, I learned early in my soapmaking journey to try for at least 30 S&P - and I also keep the lauric and myristic way down, with a superfat of 3%. I cure for at least 8 weeks, usually more. My soaps last so long I get tired of them and often wish they would dissolve faster!

 

[BB25]

There’s something about a bar of soap that is a leeeetle bit soft, that inspires kids to see just how squishy it can get! Add water and add fun!
I’m happy you may have found a solution with the longer cure. Thanks to Deanna and her wonderful Soapy Stuff articles, I learned early in my soapmaking journey to try for at least 30 S&P - and I also keep the lauric and myristic way down, with a superfat of 3%. I cure for at least 8 weeks, usually more. My soaps last so long I get tired of them and often wish they would dissolve faster!

Quite true indeed!!!
Aiming for 30 is definitely what I’ve been working on since DeeAnna mentioned it, I had always known this would help but I never understanding how much it would help.
I just went and reread the article you mentioned and it is seriously helpful so thanks for shouting about that.
I’m just wondering how low you take your L&M down & still produce some nice bubbles? The lowest I’ve gone with coconut oil is 15% and I actually enjoyed this amount…but it’s how to make up the remaining oils in the recipe so that the levels aren’t too far away from where I want them to be…..

 

[janesathome]

Quite true indeed!!!
Aiming for 30 is definitely what I’ve been working on since DeeAnna mentioned it, I had always known this would help but I never understanding how much it would help.
I just went and reread the article you mentioned and it is seriously helpful so thanks for shouting about that.
I’m just wondering how low you take your L&M down & still produce some nice bubbles? The lowest I’ve gone with coconut oil is 15% and I actually enjoyed this amount…but it’s how to make up the remaining oils in the recipe so that the levels aren’t too far away from where I want them to be…..

I’ve found that a cleansing score of under 10 works well for me. I usually have coconut at 10-12%. To increase lather I add a bit of sugar, or honey - or lately, sorbitol. Soaps aren’t as full of big lather as a high coconut bar but I get plenty of bubbles
Superfat of 2-3% helps prevent plumbing issues as well as contributing to a harder bar. and less chance of DOS!

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

By I’m just wondering how low you take your L&M down & still produce some nice bubbles?

Thanks to @AliOop I started using sorbitol and instantly saw a difference in larger bubbles. The benefit of sorbitol over sugars/honey is that it doesn’t seem to overheat the soap during CPOP or discolor it. (I haven’t scientifically tested this yet, but it seems to be holding true in multiple batches of soap.)

Thanks to @KiwiMoose I started using soy wax and developed a vegan friendly, palm-free recipe with 20% Shea butter that is working very well. I like that I don’t have to worry who I give the soaps to since they don’t have animal products in them.

I still use my tallow and lard recipes, but right now I’m loving the vegan recipe for a pure white soap. The only thing I found is I need to soap just a little warmer to keep the Shea butter and soy wax from forming stearic spots. I believe the fragrance oils work really well, too, in my vegan-Shea recipe with sunflower or safflower oil because there are no competing smells from the base oils.

I encourage you to try soy wax or a plant-based stearic acid to make your soaps harder. Try sorbitol for more large bubbles.

 

[BB25]

Thanks to @AliOop I started using sorbitol and instantly saw a difference in larger bubbles. The benefit of sorbitol over sugars/honey is that it doesn’t seem to overheat the soap during CPOP or discolor it. (I haven’t scientifically tested this yet, but it seems to be holding true in multiple batches of soap.)

Thanks to @KiwiMoose I started using soy wax and developed a vegan friendly, palm-free recipe with 20% Shea butter that is working very well. I like that I don’t have to worry who I give the soaps to since they don’t have animal products in them.

I still use my tallow and lard recipes, but right now I’m loving the vegan recipe for a pure white soap. The only thing I found is I need to soap just a little warmer to keep the Shea butter and soy wax from forming stearic spots. I believe the fragrance oils work really well, too, in my vegan-Shea recipe with sunflower or safflower oil because there are no competing smells from the base oils.

I encourage you to try soy wax or a plant-based stearic acid to make your soaps harder. Try sorbitol for more large bubbles.

A while has passed since I last posted on this thread but I’ve been busy in the studio working on my soaps!!
I spent some time experimenting with stearic acid and then realised I was using way too much for CP but actually coped with the batters considering…. Anyway, the result is some lovely bars but ultimately they weren’t going to be easy to produce overall as I needed to soap pretty hot and quick so I looked into soy wax and it’s early days but so far I’m really pleased with the addition of 20%….. I have a bar on the sink which had just hit the two week curing mark (purposely testing it at an early stage & fully appreciate that time will alter it still but initial observations are good!!) ….. it has the smallest amount of softness in the very outer layer after high use but if I try and press my finger into it really hard it doesn’t travel deeper into the soap like some of my old recipes.

Thanks @KiwiMoose and @ScentimentallyYours for encouraging me to try soy wax!! I’m using eurosoy 800 fyi
Can I officially join the soy gang now??

 

[AliOop]

Thanks @KiwiMoose and @ScentimentallyYours for encouraging me to try soy wax!! I’m using eurosoy 800 fyi
Can I officially join the soy gang now??

Sounds like you already have!

 

[Saffron]

Soy wax virgin here.... am a bit confused... what's the difference between C-3, CB 400, CB 800, 464, 494 etc??
Which one would be best for soap making? cheers.

 

[KiwiMoose]

Soy wax virgin here.... am a bit confused... what's the difference between C-3, CB 400, CB 800, 464, 494 etc??
Which one would be best for soap making? cheers.

It depends what's available in your country Saffron. I use Golden Wax 415 as a rule, but recently have switched to All Seasons S100 due to pricing. I've also used other ones. Just make sure it is ONLY soy and nothing else in the wax.