Adding Coconut Milk to Cold Process Soaps

[DianaMoon]

Superfat has a nice sound (creamy! moisturizing!) that is innately appealing to noobs.

But in some other thread, I forget which, I read DeAnna's POV and I said to myself, this makes sense. I haven't made a low SF batch yet but I look forward to.

 

[Hope Ann]

Okay I underst

I understand you are trying to keep your superfat to 2-3%, but why? So many soapers use 8-10% and even higher in some countries.

Why not? My soaps work great at 2-3% - they clean without stripping my skin. Soap scum dropped to nearly nothing without having to add a chelator, it's more bubbly without having to add as much bubble booster, and it actually seems to cure a bit faster too. Win-win-win.

Hope

Someone else - maybe @Obsidian? - recently mentioned that they get more soap scum from high-lard soaps. I’ve always thought that as well, so I was glad to have someone else confirm that as their experience, too.

Add a third agreement. I'm another lard lover and the low SF has completely changed the way my shower looks. We have hard water, I don't chelate, but the minimal SF keeps soap scum to a minimum now. HUGE difference.

Hope

 

[DeeAnna]

I did some more thinking some more about the question @linne1gi asked and wanted to add to my earlier reply to make my answer relate better to the topic of this particular thread --

Whether my usual superfat is 2% or 20%, I'd still want to know how much fat there is in the coconut milk. If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile and make the soap harsher. And increasing the superfat by 8% is a big change to the recipe, no matter what superfat a person prefers to use.

If I was a soap maker who prefers to use a 20% superfat in their soap, that still doesn't mean I'm okay with making soap that has 28% superfat. If I use a high-fat coconut milk and ignore that extra fat, that's what I might end up with. A 28% superfat might be way outside the range of superfat I want to use.

I'm reminded of the person who posted here awhile back and made some startling claims about their soap. I reverse-engineered their soap recipe as best I could and estimated the superfat in their soap was around 50%. They shared a photo of someone's hands after washing with this "soap" and I could see visible traces of fat left on the skin. I don't know exactly how much superfat is needed for soap to deposit more fat on the skin than it removes, but it seems reasonable the break point is somewhere between 20% and 50% superfat.

 

[linne1gi]

@linne1gi -- I also don't perceive my usual bath soap to be more stripping or drying to my skin when made with 2-3% superfat compared with the same soap made with a higher superfat. I can prove the lower superfat soap has more lather. If I saw a measurable benefit to using more superfat in my usual bath soap, I'd definitely increase the superfat. But I see more downsides than advantages, so I don't see any reason for increasing the superfat.

I am well aware other soap makers use much more superfat in their soap, but I don't know the basis for their decision. It may be some soap makers are basing this choice on provable benefits they get from soap made with a higher superfat. It may be others are using soap recipes that would be harsh and stripping to the skin if made with a lower superfat. It's also pretty likely that at least a few are simply following a fad -- "everyone's doing it, so it must be good."

When I mention I use 2-3% superfat, I am not trying to convince people to do as I do. What I am trying to do is provide a more nuanced point of view. I don't think it's useful to buy into the "common wisdom" that using more superfat equates to making the soap better or milder or more "conditioning". I have not found a high superfat to be provably better when making soap with a balanced blend of fats. So ... sometimes more superfat can increase mildness, but sometimes it doesn't.

I do think a lot of people follow someone else's recipe. Never formulating their own. Including the superfat. I learned early on to formulate my own recipes and I love doing that. I usually use between 4-5% superfat, just because. I guess I'm used to it. I add sugar, salt, silk, citric acid and Edta to every recipe. I think my climate leaves me more prone to DOS (South Florida) and I can't change that, so that is why I add the Edta. It's really only a miniscule amount, 5 grams per 1000 gram batch. For citric acid, I use 2% (I tried other percentages and find the 2% works well) - I do the math and add extra NaOH to make up for the amount that is neutralized by the citric. I would prefer to use sodium citrate with no math involved, but I have a giant amount of citric acid, so I am using that. Back to the superfat. I almost always use a high amount of superfat when making a high Coconut oil soap, such as a salt bar, then I use between 20-25%. I don't notice any real difference between the 20% and the 25%, so I just do whatever I feel like that particular day. I can imagine that a soap with a 50% superfat, would be very soft as well as oily feeling, as well as go rancid very quickly. This is a nice discussion. Thanks to all.

I did some more thinking some more about the question @linne1gi asked and wanted to add to my earlier reply to make my answer relate better to the topic of this particular thread --

Whether my usual superfat is 2% or 20%, I'd still want to know how much fat there is in the coconut milk. If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile and make the soap harsher. And increasing the superfat by 8% is a big change to the recipe, no matter what superfat a person prefers to use.

If I was a soap maker who prefers to use a 20% superfat in their soap, that still doesn't mean I'm okay with making soap that has 28% superfat. If I use a high-fat coconut milk and ignore that extra fat, that's what I might end up with. A 28% superfat might be way outside the range of superfat I want to use.

I'm reminded of the person who posted here awhile back and made some startling claims about their soap. I reverse-engineered their soap recipe as best I could and estimated the superfat in their soap was around 50%. They shared a photo of someone's hands after washing with this "soap" and I could see visible traces of fat left on the skin. I don't know exactly how much superfat is needed for soap to deposit more fat on the skin than it removes, but it seems reasonable the break point is somewhere between 20% and 50% superfat.

The one thing I don't understand is the statement you made "If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile and make the soap harsher." I don't understand why additional superfat would make the soap harsher?

 

[DeeAnna]

...I don't understand why additional superfat would make the soap harsher?

Based on how soap recipe c@lculators calculate the fatty acid profile, if I increase the coconut oil content in my recipe by X% that will almost always change the fatty acid profile. The only time the fatty acid profile would not change if the coconut oil percentage is increased is if the recipe is 100% coconut oil.

It's my understanding the OP isn't talking specifically about a 100% CO soap, so my thinking is based on the assumption that the soap isn't 100% CO. That's why I said "...If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile..." because it will. Add X% more CO to a list of fats in a recipe calc, and you'll see the profile change.

As far as the rest of that sentence "and make the soap harsher", here's why I think that --

Superfat isn't just made up of undisturbed fat remaining after the saponification reaction is done, although that is how most of us think of it.

Superfat includes some undisturbed fat, some fat molecules that have been partly deconstructed by lye (fats called monoglycerides and diglycerides), as well as some loose fatty acids.

Think of it this way -- lye tears into fats like a tornado plows through buildings. The tornado might leave some buildings undamaged, but most buildings will have some damage and many will be completely destroyed. Likewise with lye -- some of the fat molecules will remain intact, but most will be partially or completely dismantled. This affects the chemical composition of the superfat.

From what I understand, the shorter, simpler fatty acids (lauric and myristic acids from coconut oil) are more likely to be saponified into soap. The longer and more complicated fatty acids like oleic acid are somewhat less likely to be turned into soap. So the superfat is more likely to be higher in oleic acid, whether that's oleic acid bound up in the original triglycerides (aka the original fat) or contained in diglycerides and monoglycerides, or as free fatty acid. The soap molecules are more likely to be higher in lauric and myristic acids. The higher % of lauric and myristic soap molecules would skew the soap into being a harsher cleanser. How much it skews, I can't say for sure.

 

[DianaMoon]

The soap molecules are more likely to be higher in lauric and myristic acids. The higher % of lauric and myristic soap molecules would skew the soap into being a harsher cleanser. How much it skews, I can't say for sure.

So, superfatting doesn't automatically = creamy! (I need to put that exclamation point.)

It simply means "unsaponified fatty acids" and that can have a variety of different properties, among them, "harshness."

Well, I'll be.

 

[KiwiMoose]

I think what what DeeAnna is getting to - is that we all agree too much CO can be harsh right? So what do you think the fat component is in your coconut milk/cream? Yes, it's CO of course. By adding coconut milk, you are effectively adding some extra water, some extra CO and some extra sugar to your recipe.

Also to be pointed out that if the coconut milk is 8% fat content, it is not increasing your entire recipe by 8% superfat. In a 1kg batch of oils/fats if you add 200g of coconut milk at 8% fat content (read the can for details of fat content) you are adding 8% of the 200g as additional fat (i.e 16g of coconut oil). That 16g of additional coconut oil when added to your 1kg of total oils/fats is a 1.6% addition to your superfat. Hence if you reduce the overall recipe superfat to about 3% you will come out almost even-stevens to your usual 5% (3% plus the 1.6% = 4.6%). Remember this is all based on a 1kg batch and the assumption that your coconut milk is 8% fat. You would need to adjust accordingly for different ratios.

 

[DianaMoon]

I think what what DeeAnna is getting to - is that we all agree too much CO can be harsh right? So what do you think the fat component is in your coconut milk/cream? Yes, it's CO of course. By adding coconut milk, you are effectively adding some extra water, some extra CO and some extra sugar to your recipe.

Also to be pointed out that if the coconut milk is 8% fat content, it is not increasing your entire recipe by 8% superfat. In a 1kg batch of oils/fats if you add 200g of coconut milk at 8% fat content (read the can for details of fat content) you are adding 8% of the 200g as additional fat (i.e 16g of coconut oil). That 16g of additional coconut oil when added to your 1kg of total oils/fats is a 1.6% addition to your superfat. Hence if you reduce the overall recipe superfat to about 3% you will come out almost even-stevens to your usual 5% (3% plus the 1.6% = 4.6%). Remember this is all based on a 1kg batch and the assumption that your coconut milk is 8% fat. You would need to adjust accordingly for different ratios.

Thanks! I understand the issue - see my comment yesterday.

I'd figure out how many actual grams of fat are in the coconut milk and add that to the oils.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yep, you're right -- more superfat doesn't translate into "more creamy". The only thing you know is more superfat = higher percentage of fats and fatty acids in the soap.

You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification.

 

[DianaMoon]

Yep, you're right -- more superfat doesn't translate into "more creamy". The only thing you know is more superfat = higher percentage of fats and fatty acids in the soap.

You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification.

Not sure I want to open up this can of worms but from what you're saying, those 20% superfatted coconut oil bars aren't really as creamy and moisturizing as their proponents say they are....

 

[DianaMoon]

Yep, you're right -- more superfat doesn't translate into "more creamy". The only thing you know is more superfat = higher percentage of fats and fatty acids in the soap.

You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification.

I was embarrassed to ask this yesterday but I overcame my shame: how does this "harshness" physically play out? It's not harshness like little microbeads. What does it do to the skin that seems "harsh"?

 

[AliOop]

I was embarrassed to ask this yesterday but I overcame my shame: how does this "harshness" physically play out? It's not harshness like little microbeads. What does it do to the skin that seems "harsh"?

The high cleansing value makes it harsh bc it strips so much oil off the skin, leaving it dry and often itchy or scaly. If the soap also has a high superfat, that may compensate somewhat by leaving behind some unsaponified oil on the skin. However, I prefer to strip away less natural oil and then apply the moisturizer of my choice if and when needed. ☺

 

[DianaMoon]

The high cleansing value makes it harsh bc it strips so much oil off the skin, leaving it dry and often itchy or scaly. If the soap also has a high superfat, that may compensate somewhat by leaving behind some unsaponified oil on the skin. However, I prefer to strip away less natural oil and then apply the moisturizer of my choice if and when needed. ☺

What I get from this is the following, and scientists forgive me if I use human terms to describe a chemical process.

Lye doesn't care about the name of your oil. It just saponifies fatty acids, not oils. For example: X oil and Y oil contain varying amounts of lauric acid. Lye doesn’t care that the lauric acid is in X oil or Y oil – it just saponifies a set amount of lauric - depending on how much lye you add.

If you superfat an oil with a lot of "stripping" oils that don't get saponified - it's not going to create a super-moisturizing product. It will create a super-stripping product.

 

[AliOop]

If you superfat an oil with a lot of "stripping" oils that don't get saponified - it's not going to create a super-moisturizing product. It will create a super-stripping product.

I agree with everything you wrote until this sentence. Oils that don't get saponified behave differently than the saponified fatty acids from those same oils.

Example: Coconut oil is often used as a moisturizer for skin and hair. In other words, it is not stripping in its natural state. However, when that same coconut oil comes in contact with lye, the FAs are split off and saponified. It's the saponified FAs that will have the qualities reflected in the soap calc, i.e., cleansing (stripping) and bubbly for CO. The remaining unsaponified CO will in theory continue to behave the same as it would outside of soap, i.e. moisturizing to the skin.

But as DeeAnna noted, that isn't entirely true, since the lye may have partially broken it down, even if it isn't fully saponified. Also, you are talking about a small amount of CO supposedly being left on the skin. How much is left after the saponified FAs (the soap) does its cleansing action, is really hard to quantify.

It gets even more complicated for the substantial subset of folks like me, who do not find plain old CO to be moisturizing at all. For me, even plain CO (not saponified) makes my skin and my hair feel dry and greasy at the same time. It just doesn't soak in at all.

 

[DianaMoon]

I agree with everything you wrote until this sentence. Oils that don't get saponified behave differently than the saponified fatty acids from those same oils.

Example: Coconut oil is often used as a moisturizer for skin and hair. In other words, it is not stripping in its natural state. However, when that same coconut oil comes in contact with lye, the FAs are split off and saponified. It's the saponified FAs that will have the qualities reflected in the soap calc, i.e., cleansing (stripping) and bubbly for CO. The remaining unsaponified CO will in theory continue to behave the same as it would outside of soap, i.e. moisturizing to the skin.

But as DeeAnna noted, that isn't entirely true, since the lye may have partially broken it down, even if it isn't fully saponified. Also, you are talking about a small amount of CO supposedly being left on the skin. How much is left after the saponified FAs (the soap) does its cleansing action, is really hard to quantify.

It gets even more complicated for the substantial subset of folks like me, who do not find plain old CO to be moisturizing at all. For me, even plain CO (not saponified) makes my skin and my hair feel dry and greasy at the same time. It just doesn't soak in at all.

But that doesn't square with this; "You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification. "

Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left over.

 

[KiwiMoose]

But that doesn't square with this; "You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification. "

Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left over.

True - but they will be oils, and they will be superfat. The only time you know for sure what your superfat oil is, is when you make 100% CO soap (for example), with 20% superfat. We can possibly assume if you have a mixture of oils in your recipe, that the superfat will also be a mixture of oils, but we don't exactly what they are or what the ratios of each are. I would assume the fatty acids that saponify slower would be more likely to have a higher ratio in the superfat - but I'm not sure that there's a way to calculate that.

 

[AliOop]

Yes, what @KiwiMoose said.

 

[DianaMoon]

I do not see the superfat as a complete oil that survives saponification. That's not my understanding of this at all:

"So the superfat is more likely to be higher in oleic acid, whether that's oleic acid bound up in the original triglycerides (aka the original fat) or contained in diglycerides and monoglycerides, or as free fatty acid. [emphasis added] The soap molecules are more likely to be higher in lauric and myristic acids. The higher % of lauric and myristic soap molecules would skew the soap into being a harsher cleanser. How much it skews, I can't say for sure."

Hopefully DeAnna will clear this up.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left over...."

I regret I wasn't clear, @DianaMoon. Ali and Kiwi are doing a better job of explaining. There will be some of the original fat left in the superfat. I never meant to give that impression that all of the original fat is all munched up. Some is, but not all.

I think I'm confusing people more than I"m helping, and for that I'm sorry.

To move on, isn't the superfat that make a soap harsh or stripping, it's the soap that determine the harshness.

Soap molecules made from lauric and myristic acids (a soap high in coconut oil, for example) are very efficient at removing an excessive amount of the natural fats and proteins from the surface of the skin. Sensitive or damaged skin is more likely to be reddened and/or irritated by a high lauric-myristsic soap, but even normal skin can get dried out, especially with repeated use of this type of soap. Most people "tame" a soap like this by adding enough extra superfat to interfere with the soap's ability to remove skin oils and proteins.

Soap that is rich in longer chain fatty acids is not capable of this stripping action. That is why lard soap has traditionally been considered a mild soap for use with children and sensitive or dry skin. Using a superfat with a lard soap doesn't make it less stripping .... it is naturally already that way even with a low or moderate superfat.

I hope this helps clear the waters a bit.

 

[DianaMoon]

"...Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left over...."

I regret I wasn't clear, @DianaMoon. Ali and Kiwi are doing a better job of explaining. There will be some of the original fat left in the superfat. I never meant to give that impression that all of the original fat is all munched up. Some is, but not all.

I think I'm confusing people more than I"m helping, and for that I'm sorry.

To move on, isn't the superfat that make a soap harsh or stripping, it's the soap that determine the harshness.

Soap molecules made from lauric and myristic acids (a soap high in coconut oil, for example) are very efficient at removing an excessive amount of the natural fats and proteins from the surface of the skin. Sensitive or damaged skin is more likely to be reddened and/or irritated by a high lauric-myristsic soap, but even normal skin can get dried out, especially with repeated use of this type of soap. Most people "tame" a soap like this by adding enough extra superfat to interfere with the soap's ability to remove skin oils and proteins.

Soap that is rich in longer chain fatty acids is not capable of this stripping action. That is why lard soap has traditionally been considered a mild soap for use with children and sensitive or dry skin. Using a superfat with a lard soap doesn't make it less stripping .... it is naturally already that way even with a low or moderate superfat.

I hope this helps clear the waters a bit.

No, you're not confusing. I'm really learning a lot. I apologize for being so dense.

I was probably overthinking. Back to what Ali said, if the oil isn't saponified, it survives with its properties intact. To put it simply, if you're doing a single oil soap and you add extra coconut oil, you will end up with unsaponified coconut oil. (If that's not what she said, correct me.)

What I do not understand is how does it "tame" a soap to add more of an oil which is "stripping"?