A couple vinegar questions

[toxikon]

I was thinking of trying some new things for this month's challenge, including a new high-oleic recipe and a vinegar replacement.

So I have a couple questions for the seasoned vinegar soapers.

1. Does using a full vinegar replacement effect trace at all?

2. Any long-term benefits for vinegar soap opposed to regular, distilled water soap? (Short-term bonus is obviously the quicker unmolding time/hardness)

3. Does vinegar reduce high-oleic snot?

Thank you!

 

[earlene]

I found using vinegar to replace all of the water made for a very brittle soap. The first time I did it, I could barely cut the soap and then only with a knife. It was too hard for a wire cutter, IMO. (Luckily I didn't use one, or I am sure it would have broken the wires.) When cutting, the soap broke off in shards, like shale sometimes breaks. The resulting soap was very long lasting however, but the shapes were not uniform at all. If individual molds are used, then cutting would not be an issue.

I use TOMH's calculations to figure for the additional NaOH needed in order to get approximately 1 or 2% Sodium Acetate rather than using a full vinegar to water replacement. It makes for a much easier to work with soap. (Refer to this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59295) It also makes it easier to use my masterbatched lye and just adding the remainder of water as vinegar.

I have not noticed any effect on trace, although I may not be experienced enough to say for sure.

As far as your third question, I am not really sure if it has any effect on High Oleic soap's sliminess. I have not really noticed, but then, I don't notice the slime as much as others do, so I am probably the wrong person to respond to that question.

 

[toxikon]

I found using vinegar to replace all of the water made for a very brittle soap. The first time I did it, I could barely cut the soap and then only with a knife. It was too hard for a wire cutter, IMO. (Luckily I didn't use one, or I am sure it would have broken the wires.) When cutting, the soap broke off in shards, like shale sometimes breaks. The resulting soap was very long lasting however, but the shapes were not uniform at all. If individual molds are used, then cutting would not be an issue.

I use TOMH's calculations to figure for the additional NaOH needed in order to get approximately 1 or 2% Sodium Acetate rather than using a full vinegar to water replacement. It makes for a much easier to work with soap. (Refer to this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59295) It also makes it easier to use my masterbatched lye and just adding the remainder of water as vinegar.

I have not noticed any effect on trace, although I may not be experienced enough to say for sure.

As far as your third question, I am not really sure if it has any effect on High Oleic soap's sliminess. I have not really noticed, but then, I don't notice the slime as much as others do, so I am probably the wrong person to respond to that question.

Thanks earlene! I went ahead with my experimental batch last night and it was quite interesting.

First off... it traced suuuper quick! I'm not sure what to chalk it up to, there were a few new factors at play. Lots of butters, high lye concentration, vinegar, new FO... So I'll have to try the vinegar again with a recipe I'm more familiar with.

I did a full vinegar (5% acetic acid) replacement, adding .035 x vinegar gram weight in additional NaOH.

I had to mash it into my mold it was so thick, then I kept an eye on it during the following hours. It got quite hot with no insulation, and I was able to unmold and cut it into bars about 5 hours after pouring!

It sliced nicely with my wire cutter as the loaf was still a bit soft. I'm glad I didn't leave it overnight! I tried pressing a bar this morning and it's very firm but still has some springiness (opposed to how hard and firm a salt bar would be).

I'll report back on how it is in a few weeks.

This is the recipe I tried (inspired by Ginny's shampoo bar):

40% HO-Safflower
30% Avocado Oil
10% Shea Butter
10% Cocoa Butter
10% Castor Oil

40% Lye Concentration (95% NaOH / 5% KOH)
100% Vinegar Replacement
3% Superfat

 

[earlene]

I am very interested in how your soap turns out and if you have another non-vinegar of the same recipe how it compares.

If you have made this same recipe without vinegar, but using dual lye, how fast did it trace? I always find that much Castor Oil speeds trace for me, regardless of other additives. But if you have made it before and the trace was faster with only one change and that being vinegar, it would be quite interesting.

 

[toxikon]

I am very interested in how your soap turns out and if you have another non-vinegar of the same recipe how it compares.

If you have made this same recipe without vinegar, but using dual lye, how fast did it trace? I always find that much Castor Oil speeds trace for me, regardless of other additives. But if you have made it before and the trace was faster with only one change and that being vinegar, it would be quite interesting.

This recipe is brand new to me, actually my first venture away from lard/tallow-heavy recipes! So I have no base of comparison yet. If I try it again sans vinegar I will let you know!

 

[penelopejane]

I think it’s the 40% lye concentration that sped up trace and not the vinegar. I’ve used vinegar quite a few times on pretty much the same recipe and it was fine at 30-33% lye concentration with OO instead of safflower and cocoa butter.

In blind tests my family and I don’t like the feel of the resulting bar when I use vinegar. It’s changes the lather and feel of the bar. I used many different percentages of vinegar until I gave up.

 

[MorpheusPA]

I think it’s the 40% lye concentration that sped up trace and not the vinegar. I’ve used vinegar quite a few times on pretty much the same recipe and it was fine at 30-33% lye concentration with OO instead of safflower and cocoa butter.

In blind tests my family and I don’t like the feel of the resulting bar when I use vinegar. It’s changes the lather and feel of the bar. I used many different percentages of vinegar until I gave up.

Reeeeally? Well, time for a test; 80g per pound of oils vinegar to see what difference it makes in my current go-to.

What don't you like about the feel? Is it clingy? Too slippery?

 

[earlene]

In blind tests my family and I don’t like the feel of the resulting bar when I use vinegar. It’s changes the lather and feel of the bar. I used many different percentages of vinegar until I gave up.

Is this with any recipe, or a specific recipe? I am curious how the lather changed and what 'feel' was it that was altered? Feel is so subjective, I am sure it may be difficult to articulate, of course.

 

[penelopejane]

Is this with any recipe, or a specific recipe? I am curious how the lather changed and what 'feel' was it that was altered? Feel is so subjective, I am sure it may be difficult to articulate, of course.

In toxicon’s recipe with the changes I stated above.

You will have to bear with me because I have made so many variations with tiny tweaks that it is difficult to exactly compare. I did this a while ago so a lot of my vinegar soaps have gone.

I have a soap that was made with that specific recipe stated above made on 20.02.17. 30% lye concentration, 54% vinegar. It has bubbles and lathers but the lather is thin. The bar isn't brittle. It also isn't rock hard but it is a good hard bar.

The same recipe, made at the same time without vinegar has very thick, smooth, luscious lather. It is really lovely. This bar isn't brittle. But it is a good hard bar.

I also have 100% EVOO castile (all my Castiles are) made with 59% vinegar instead of the water 29% lye concentration 0% SF. Made on 30.03.17. I CPOPd it (wrapped in a very low in the oven at 40*C then turned off) and cut it with a wire cutter 24 hours after pouring and it was fine.
Now it is rock hard, really, really rock hard. One of the bars has been dropped at some stage and shattered in the corner. I can't get it to lather without rubbing it vigorously between my hands and even then the lather is thin but gloopy. Not stringy as you people get with Castile (as in videos where you can make strings with it) but sort of slimy and slippery and not good lather at all. Barely any bubbles. I think I will be throwing this out as it is a useless soap. I wouldn't be happy giving it away.

On 10.07.17 Castile without vinegar but with salt instead. Same everything but 35% Lye concentration and 2% SF. Cut at 24 hrs. It is beautiful. It has really thick lather and bubbles well (not like palm and coconut but it's nice to me). It is not slimy or gloopy but just a lovely bar of soap. I am amazed that it is so nice after only 6 months. I think I'll stick with that recipe : ))

 

[Spice]

I didn't know that soap could be had with vinegar. I once tried soaking my lye water in Hibiscus flowers, when I tried to mix in the lye...it turned a yukie brown color. I thought it was because of the acidity, some claim that vinegar reduces the lye burn on skin. Interesting about this vinegar soap.

 

[earlene]

Penelopejane, thank you for your in depth review of these soaps! Your note keeping rocks! I will have to pay really close attention to the vinegar soaps I've made and compare them as you have. I do have some Castiles I made with vinegar that I can probably start comparing soon.

 

[cmzaha]

I use a tallow/lard recipe as one I use with full 100% AVO soap and could not get back soon enough to cut it. I got it cut with my wire cutter but popped to wires such as my hubby told me not to break any wires . Hey, I have not broke wires in a couple of years so he can't complain... I have fallen in love with vinegar and dual lye

 

[cmzaha]

Since I cannot edit the above post I will clarify what I meant to type. must have been at the parents...

I meant to say I use 50-100% vinegar in all but my salt bar recipes, normally 100% and have noticed no difference in the feel of the soap when using it. It does seem to help the lather although I added using Sorbitol instead of sugar so I am not sure if it it a combination of the Sorbitol and Vinegar or just one or the other. As mentioned above I do have to cut much sooner so either make my soaps in the morning or late at night, since my recipes with 100% vinegar cannot stay in the mold for 12 hrs or more.