1st attempt, making liquid soap from soap bar doesn't result in gelification

[Elysium82]

Hey ladies and gentlemen,

I have decided to make liquid soap using a 100% virgin olive oil bar of soap.

I wanted to test a commercial brand too (only available in Hungary) and see which one gives better results (goes from water to gel). I used the same principle with both soaps: 200 ml of water, microwaved, 20 grs of soap grated and mixed into the hot water, left on the counter overnight.

Contestant 1: Sodium Tallowate , Sodium Palm Kernelate , Water / Aqua , Glycerin , Parfum/Fragrance , Sodium Chloride , Lanolin , Tetrasodium EDTA , Tetrasodium Etidronate , BHT , Geraniol , Hexyl Cinnamal , Linalool , Titanium Dioxide

Contestant 2: sodium olivate, aqua, glycerin, sodium chloride, sodium hydroxide. It only contains 0.001% lye.

contestant 1 was only used for this experiment, but it won't make it to the bathroom shelf. I don't want to use that soap at all with all the weird ingredients in it. My problem is that contestant 1 gave me the perfect gel though, while contestant 2 is as runny as a glass of pure water. Why is that?

 

[shunt2011]

You will never get usable liquid soap dissolving bar soap. It will always have a snotty texture and not be nice to use.

 

[Elysium82]

You will never get usable liquid soap dissolving bar soap. It will always have a snotty texture and not be nice to use.

Well, I hear you, but it is not perfection I am after. I just want to ditch the commercial things I have used so far (even if it is at the cost of using something that has weird texture).

At this stage I am just interested in knowing what makes one bar of soap stay in a liquid state even after a night.

 

[GemstonePony]

Bar soap usually tries to revert back to bar form because of the alkali it's formed with, and I've no doubt over time your 2 samples will as well.
That said, here's a simplified explanation of your different results:
Contestant 1 saponified tallow and palm kernel oil which are higher in saturated fats, and the resulting alkali salts bond better both with each other and the water for stronger emulsion (and better cleaning power).
Contestant 2 saponified olive oil, which is primarily unsaturated, and the resulting alkali salts don't bond as strongly with each other forming a much weaker emulsion (and more mild cleaning power).

There are different types of fatty acids all with different properties in soap, but those fatty acids determine whether the soap is saturated or unsaturated.

 

[Elysium82]

There are different types of fatty acids all with different properties in soap, but those fatty acids determine whether the soap is saturated or unsaturated.

Thank you for explaining that. So, what type of saponified ingredients shall I look for on the packaging that normally come in craft/bio soaps in order to achieve gelification with my next batch?

Sodium Palm kernelate seems to be an option, but most craft/bio soaps wont have that for its drying properties. I assume sodium tallowate is also something craft/bio soap won't contain.

Maybe saponified coconut oil? Which would be "sodium coconate"? Just kidding...I have no idea what it is called.

 

[GemstonePony]

Thank you for explaining that. So, what type of saponified ingredients shall I look for on the packaging that normally come in craft/bio soaps in order to achieve gelification with my next batch?

Sodium Palm kernelate seems to be an option, but most craft/bio soaps wont have that for its drying properties. I assume sodium tallowate is also something craft/bio soap won't contain.

Maybe saponified coconut oil? Which would be "sodium coconate"? Just kidding...I have no idea what it is called.

You're close with coconut, it's sodium cocoate
If you're able to make lye soap easily in Hungary, none of those oils should be hard to come across in bar form. Most ingredients would be listed in their saponified state, so you would need to read labels and possibly do some research to find out what is what.

 

[gloopygloop]

Its very, very difficult to get solid soap bar to stay as a liquid but one trick you might like to try is adding a solvent like glycerin, you might need a good amount but this does help to dissolve for want of a better expression the hard soap. Try a small amount and see how it works, I think any soap will be fine to test out, you could of course mix a castile all olive oil bar soap grated with a high coconut oil ( Sodium Cocoate) the high coconut oil soap will be drying on the skin but the castile should not be, heat them with water and glycerine and see what happens, then report back! unless someone already tried this route and knows better?

 

[AliOop]

If you are determined to use a soap on your hair (please research that first), have you thought about making liquid soap from scratch? It will be so much nicer than trying to liquify a bar soap. We have a great liquid soap forum here with some excellent tutorials.

 

[gloopygloop]

I didn't see anything about using the soap on hair but if I missed something the NO dont use soap on your hair, just dont, its horrible and will be detrimental to your hair.

 

[GemstonePony]

Its very, very difficult to get solid soap bar to stay as a liquid but one trick you might like to try is adding a solvent like glycerin, you might need a good amount but this does help to dissolve for want of a better expression the hard soap. Try a small amount and see how it works, I think any soap will be fine to test out, you could of course mix a castile all olive oil bar soap grated with a high coconut oil ( Sodium Cocoate) the high coconut oil soap will be drying on the skin but the castile should not be, heat them with water and glycerine and see what happens, then report back! unless someone already tried this route and knows better?

Most soaps with coconut oil don't contain high amounts of it because it is too drying in bar form so that may be hard to find without making it yourself.
If you try to add straight coconut oil, you won't have enough soap to clean things, and if you try to add lye to make up for it, you're recreating soap- which gets tricky from a caustic substance standpoint.
There are some very good reasons why the oil ingredients, ratios, and purpose for each oil are different between bar and liquid soap, and the change in alkali is only one of those reasons.
I don't do much with glycerine, but it won't thin as much as water will, which might be ok for your purposes.

 

[Elysium82]

If you are determined to use a soap on your hair (please research that first), have you thought about making liquid soap from scratch? It will be so much nicer than trying to liquify a bar soap. We have a great liquid soap forum here with some excellent tutorials.

I am using chickpea paste to wash my hair. I do not use soap on my hair (I didn't even say that. )

 

[GemstonePony]

I am using chickpea paste to wash my hair. I do not use soap on my hair (I didn't even say that. )

Most of the time that's why someone's trying to liquefy bar soap, so I think it was a kindly meant caution that was taken as fact. Thank you for clarifying! I've never heard of cleaning with chickpea paste.

 

[AliOop]

I am using chickpea paste to wash my hair. I do not use soap on my hair (I didn't even say that. )

Thank you for clarifying. I assumed you were using it on your hair, because if this is just for your body, why not use bar soap as-is without liquifying it?

If you really prefer a liquid cleaner, may I encourage you to make real liquid soap? It's fun to do, and the product is so much better than what you will get from liquifying solid soap. Due to the addition of water, the latter gets nasty pretty fast, with microbes that can be very harmful to your health before you can ever see them or smell them.

 

[DeeAnna]

"...unless someone already tried this route and knows better? ..."

Some of us liquid soap makers kept an open mind on this issue and experimented a few years back to see if we could make "liquid soap" out of bar (NaOH) soap. The results have been a flop. Here's the thread -- Liquid soap with NaOH???

After having participated in this experiment, done other tests on my own, and also made and used plenty of KOH liquid soap, I can firmly and confidently say that soap made with a sodium alkali (NaOH) does not do well as a "liquid soap".

If you really want to make a stable liquid soap that has a consistent texture, nice feel on the skin, and good lathering and cleansing properties, you have to use a potassium alkali (KOH) for most or all of the required alkali.

It can be interesting to play around with grated bar soap, water, and whatever additives that seem appropriate, but don't expect much sage advice from experienced soap makers except to wish y'all well and have fun.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

And also, don't just assume that something is a wierd ingredient - here in the EU there are strict labelling laws for soaps, downside is that they aren't all that easy to read unless you a bit about what they are trying to say

 

[Elysium82]

Thank you all for the valuable information.

I ended up just buying/testing a soap bar by a Hungarian company.

It costs 1.75 USD for 90 grs (a bit more than 3 oz) and contains the following ingredients:
Sodium Palmate ti I eu , Sodium Palmate/ Cocoate / Palm Kernelate ti , Water / Aqua , Glycerin h 0 0 , Melaleuca Alternifolia (Tea Tree) Leaf Oil , Urtica Dioica (Nettle) , Palm Acid ti I eu , Palm Kernel Acid ti I eu , Sodium Chloride

One day, when this covid19 madness is over, I'll make my own soap bar. That's a promise.