Soaping with unknown oil

shmaria · May 9, 2016

Hi,
I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhuca_longifolia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.

Viore · May 9, 2016

Welcome to the forum!

kchaystack · May 9, 2016

this table lists it as 187-194. Which is probably the KOH value, so will need to be converted to NaOH value. So divide that by 1.403 (I think, I might be misremembering, but I am sure one of the real chemists will correct me and I will edit my post if needed). I would take the .190 (the middle of the range) for .183 (rounded)

http://www.chempro.in/fattyacid.htm

DeeAnna · May 9, 2016

KC -- I think you're pretty close, but here's how I'd do it --

The KOH sap value you found is an average of 190. The units on this sap value are milligrams KOH / gram fat. To state this sap value the way we usually see it, you'd say instead the KOH sap value is 0.190 g KOH / g fat. See how the units are mg/g for the first and g/g for the second?

Convert the KOH sap value to the NaOH sap value --
NaOH sap value = 0.190 / 1.403 = 0.135 g NaOH / g fat

This is about the same sap value as linseed (flax seed) oil.

kchaystack · May 9, 2016

DeeAnna said:
KC -- I think you're pretty close, but here's how I'd do it --

The KOH sap value you found is an average of 190. The units on this sap value are milligrams KOH / gram fat. To state this sap value the way we usually see it, you'd say instead the KOH sap value is 0.190 g KOH / g fat. See how the units are mg/g for the first and g/g for the second?

Convert the KOH sap value to the NaOH sap value --
NaOH sap value = 0.190 / 1.403 = 0.135 g NaOH / g fat

This is about the same sap value as linseed (flax seed) oil.

Glad I got it pretty close.

I was also trying to understand the fatty acid profile - but I am at work on a conf. call from h#!! so I can't quite concentrate enough to really compare it to others and listen for the 1 question they might ask me in an hour and a half call.

DeeAnna · May 9, 2016

You have my sympathy, KC. Good luck!

topofmurrayhill · May 9, 2016

shmaria said:
Hi,
I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhuca_longifolia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.

Cool. That tree is related to the one that produces shea butter, though the properties are different. SAP value of .135 sounds too low.

In any case, this oil is found in Soapcalc as Mowrah Butter with the correct fatty acid profile and a plausible SV.

Let us know how it works. If you are using locally produced crude oil, the free fatty acid level might be quite high and it would trace very quickly.

kchaystack · May 9, 2016

Ok found it on Soapee as Mowrah Butter

http://soapee.com/oils/78

shmaria · May 10, 2016

topofmurrayhill said:
Cool. That tree is related to the one that produces shea butter, though the properties are different. SAP value of .135 sounds too low.

In any case, this oil is found in Soapcalc as Mowrah Butter with the correct fatty acid profile and a plausible SV.

Let us know how it works. If you are using locally produced crude oil, the free fatty acid level might be quite high and it would trace very quickly.

@topofmurrayhill, thanks, but are you sure its the same oil? I actually wrote to soapcalc asking them if they could add the oil to their list and got a reply that they didn't have enough info on the oil to add it.
Any suggestions on lye percentage and oil combinations? I've got coconut oil, sunflower, palm (we get two kinds, a hard white palm oil with sesame oil mixed in, and a liquid one that's labelled palmolein), rice bran, olive pomace and castor (also raw/crude) in stock.

topofmurrayhill · May 10, 2016

shmaria said:
@topofmurrayhill, thanks, but are you sure its the same oil? I actually wrote to soapcalc asking them if they could add the oil to their list and got a reply that they didn't have enough info on the oil to add it.

Yes it's the same oil. The fatty acid profile is identical. You will be fine using that. There is also an entry for palm olein that should be similar to what you would get as cooking oil.

I don't love the idea of the hard palm if it has sesame oil in it, because (1) you don't know the exact composition of the oil and (2) sesame is not such a stable oil. Perhaps you could find out more about it. The palm olein should be hard enough if it's palm olein 56. You could try refrigerating it and see to what extent it solidifies.

Summi · May 11, 2016

@shmaria
Hi! About the palm oil, different brands give different results. The one in yellow bag with Palmolein written all over it causes soap to seize. It sort of sets in the pot. So you might want to avoid that in your first attempt. Just go for any other brand like Ruchi Gold etc. As for the other one (Dalda?) they haven't mentioned the amount of Sesame oil, hence it might be difficult to calculate the SAP value. I would also love to try it, if you find its SAP, do let me know.

The Efficacious Gentleman · May 11, 2016

If there is a mix of two oils, look at the saturated fat amount for each individual oil and compare it to the saturated fat amount for the mix.

Example, our oil is a mix of A and B. A has a saturated % of 25 and B is 40. The % on our mix is 30%, so I know already that it is more A than B. Using trial and error in a spreadsheet I can quickly come to an exact mix that would give me this figure.

shmaria · May 12, 2016

Okay, then. Guess I'll just experiment with different combinations now. Thanks again!

shmaria · May 12, 2016

@summi- Yeah, I've been using ruchi gold, but thought of trying dalda since all the recipes and videos show white chunks, not liquid. The one batch I made with dalda did seize fast, but I think I'll try a couple more experimental batches just sseat-of-pants style

I'm trying to formulate a basic soap without expensive oils and a good amount of hardness, so dalda, rice bran sunflower and castor are on the list

shmaria · May 12, 2016

The Efficacious Gentleman said:
If there is a mix of two oils, look at the saturated fat amount for each individual oil and compare it to the saturated fat amount for the mix.

Example, our oil is a mix of A and B. A has a saturated % of 25 and B is 40. The % on our mix is 30%, so I know already that it is more A than B. Using trial and error in a spreadsheet I can quickly come to an exact mix that would give me this figure.

We don't get a breakdown of the oils here, just "contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"

The Efficacious Gentleman · May 12, 2016

You generally have to contact the supplier or research online for the actual oils used.

Here we have a palm-based cooking oil, but mixed. So I emailed the company and they said it was palm and canola but wouldn't tell me the ratio - so with the saturated fat amounts for each oil and the amount for the mix itself, I could work out the actual mix of the two oils.

If the sap values for the two oils are pretty much the same, though, it's not critical. But if you have wildly different sap values you are more accurate with the measurements if you work it out

DeeAnna · May 12, 2016

US ingredients lists are the same, Shmaria -- no one wants to tell the consumer the exact amounts of the actual ingredients.

But do you see a nutrition label on the shortening? Nutrition labels are required in North America and I believe in Europe and the UK; don't know about other regions of the world. For example:

This is what The Gent is talking about -- the list that tells the Calories, and the Saturated, Monosaturated, and Polyunsaturated fats, etc.

shmaria said:
We don't get a breakdown of the oils here, just "contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"

shmaria · May 20, 2016

Ok, here's what teh pack says exactly:
Nutritional facts per 100g (approximate)
Energy 900kcal
Protein 0g
carbohydrate 0g
of which sugar 0g
fat 100g
vitamin A 750mg
Vitamin D 5 mg
Hydrogenated vegetable fate used - contains trans fats
e} total trans fat content not more than 10 percent by weight
ii) Total saturated fat content not more than 58 percent by weight.

DeeAnna said:
US ingredients lists are the same, Shmaria -- no one wants to tell the consumer the exact amounts of the actual ingredients.

But do you see a nutrition label on the shortening? Nutrition labels are required in North America and I believe in Europe and the UK; don't know about other regions of the world. For example:

This is what The Gent is talking about -- the list that tells the Calories, and the Saturated, Monosaturated, and Polyunsaturated fats, etc.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

The Efficacious Gentleman · May 20, 2016

And what are the saturated amounts of the two fats in the mix?

DeeAnna · May 20, 2016

Hydrogenated Palm oil
Lauric 49%
Myristic 17
Palmitic 8
Stearic 16
Oleic 4
Ricinoleic 0
Linoleic 0
Linolenic 0

Hyd Palm saturated fat = 49 + 17 + 8 + 16 = 90%
Hyd Palm NaOH sap value 0.176

***

Sesame oil (I believe this is what "til" oil is usually called in English)
Lauric 0%
Myristic 0
Palmitic 10
Stearic 5
Oleic 40
Ricinoleic 0
Linoleic 43
Linolenic 0

Sesame saturated fat = 10 + 5 = 15%
Sesame NaOH sap value 0.137

***

"Hydrogenated vegetable fat used..."
"contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"

If I'm following you correctly, your shortening has palm and sesame oils and the mixture is 58% saturated fat. I've assumed the palm is hydrogenated and the sesame is not, but that's a guess.

So if Sesame is 15% saturated fat and hydrogenated palm is 90% saturated fat, can you figure out the proportions needed of the two oils to make a mixture that is 58% saturated?

Soaping with unknown oil

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