Hard water/chelators

Rather than hijack the lard thread further, I thought I'd post some questions here re sodium citrate. I am interested in it mainly as a chelator (not for DOS or lathering, it looks from other threads as if people are interested in those things as well), I have very hard water and tons of soap scum.


I've used Irish Lass's recommendations on EDTA amounts/solution methods and that has helped tremendously. EG was kind enough to pass on his and DeeAnna's suggestions regarding citric acid, as well. As a final alternative I wanted to ask about sodium citrate (thanks, Sonya!).

Would anyone (DeeAnnaaaaaaa ....) be willing to opine on the following? For the last two, ie; CA and SC, it looks as if good maximum amts are maybe 2 % and 3 % of oils respectively, is that right? I'm not eager to claim Guiness world record status for the scummiest tub in the world ("yay, not-ally, scummy tub winner"!) but sometimes it feels that way, so would be good to know how high I can go without destabilizing the basic formula generally.

Also, any way to solubilize these easily so that I can store them in a squeeze bottle and add them w/o worrying about them dissolving? If so, when to add? EG suggested adding the CA powder to the water before lye but not sure if this would be the case if it was in a solution. Currently I sometimes add liquid sodium lactate to the cooled lye water, sugar/water solution and EDTA solution to the batter at emulsification, and FO to the oils or at emulsification depending on whether it is an accelerator or not. So it would be kind of great to just be able to put as many things in at one time as possible, my poor brain gets overheated with too many details.


Sorry this is so long, you guys, has been percolating for a while. Hope it makes sense.

I am in Whittier with hard water. I use 1.5 percent of oil total for my amount of CA to use. I multiply the totao ca by 0.624 to get tht amount of extra NaOh needed for chelating. Since I do not like tht reaction of citric in lye I make up a 50/50 citric to hot water solution, usually a pint at a time. I figure out how much CA I need, double that amount and pour tht 50/50 CA solution into my oils before adding my lye solution. No lye/citric acid reaction. It has helped tremendously with scum

Thank you, Carolyn! V. helpful about mixing the solution. We must all have crap water in So. Cal. Do you discount your water for the additional CA solution, or not enough to matter? I do full water.

It's not just So Cal with rocks running through pipes! We have crazy-hard water up here in NorCal too. I find it simplest to remember to add the extra lye onto what the calc spits out, and then measure out my citric acid into the pitcher before adding the water, so everything's dissolved and waiting for the lye.

I guess that's what we pay for the endless sunshine and cheap veggies Thanks, Stardancer.

not_ally said:

Thank you, Carolyn! V. helpful about mixing the solution. We must all have crap water in So. Cal. Do you discount your water for the additional CA solution, or not enough to matter? I do full water.

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If you are using full water I would discount the ounce or so you will use. I water discount most of the time but do not worry about it. Another reason I do mine with the 50/50 solution is I soap with 50/50 lye and I find it much easier to dissolve the CA in hot water beforehand and my CA is always ready :razz:

Carolyn, have been wanting to go to 50/50 lye but am weirdly afraid of it. Mostly because I am so clumsy that I often splash myself w/the regular soap batter and am pretty nervous about a more concentrated lye solution (although I am more careful w/that than the batter.) But it would be so much easier.

I bought the big box of lard at Smart and Final today and thought of you b/c I realized it had CA in it and wondered if you accounted for that, and then thought, nah, probably not enough to worry about. But it did make me realize how this soaping thing can pervade our lives!

I use sodium citrate at about 3% of oils. I make my lye solution at just over a 1:1 ratio (slightly more water so I don't worry about the lye not dissolving fully) and then I have the rest of liquids to do with what I wish, whether it's to use a different liquid (milks, aloe juice etc...) or my normal, which is to dissolve my sodium citrate in that part of the water and add it to my oils before I add my lye water. If you did something like that, you could make up some sodium citrate in water and store it, adding X amount to your oils before the lye water. That way you don't have to worry about recalculating the lye.

Newbie, this sounds really good. I am horrible at math, (really horrible) so am going to put it aside for a moment and come back, I have an intuitive sense that if I can do it, it would make things much easier. Thanks.

Edited to add: I think if you have won a soap challenge you might have to change your name! You are giving false hope to all of us actual ones

I can't think of anything particularly appealing. That has been said several times but I come up with a blank. Any suggestions?

No, it's hard, isn't it? My moniker is one I adopted about 16 years ago when I was posting to a lawyers' board a lot and there was this show on the air that I thought was particularly ridiculous w/r/t to portraying the allegedly glamorous, fun legal life. I haven't really practiced for years, but it is so much easier to just use the same old sign on than come up with a new and better one. I am always kind of curious about other soapers' names and what they represent, though.

not_ally said:

No, it's hard, isn't it? My moniker is one I adopted about 16 years ago when I was posting to a lawyers' board a lot and there was this show on the air that I thought was particularly ridiculous w/r/t to portraying the allegedly glamorous, fun legal life. I haven't really practiced for years, but it is so much easier to just use the same old sign on than come up with a new and better one. I am always kind of curious about other soapers' names and what they represent, though.

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Ally McBeal?! Haha! That show took absurd to a whole new level. I wonder if doctors feel that way about Grey's Anatomy? (Which I love, incidentally.)

It was so silly. I was working at a giant law firm, billing a zillion hours a month doing research in my office (w/a pillow and sleeping bag under the desk in case I needed to do a late night.) *So* not the sexy, Prada wearing, arguing-precedent settting-cases in court Ally.

Not sure about docs, my little sister is one, I will have to ask her. "R, is everyone you work with really gorgeous despite sleep deprivation, and tormented about the deeper questions in life?" Except I am afraid that she might slap me

Sorry about the hijack for those who clicked on it for chelator info. Except I started it! For once I feel less guilty about hijacking.

I don't have bad water so lathering is not an issue. I did add some EDTA to a recent order though to try out. I notice my shaving soap leaves a little film on my sink so it will be interesting to see how it works.

Lee, the EDTA has made a big difference w/r/t the film on the sink with the CP, I am using at fairly high proportions though (.5%) b/c my water is so hard. Curious to see if it works the same way w/shaving soap, please post about how it turns out ...