Neutralizing LS - yet another question :)

Kyra · Aug 8, 2014

I read so much on the subject of neutralizing LS and I am still confused. Confused enough that I want to start a new thread.

I read right here, on the forums, that today's calculators take into account the 90% purity of KOH and soaping at 0% SF requires no neutralization.

I did that for one of my batches, but my Phenolphthalein test was still turning pink. The clear came only after adding neutralizer.

I really do not want to mess with the neutralization anymore. Would a bastille recipe of 20%CO and 80% Pure OO still turn crystal clear if I superfat? What's the SF percentage that would give me a safe soap that requires no neutralization but will keep the perfect clarity?

Any input would be much appreciated!

Susie · Aug 8, 2014

Make sure you check the box for 90% purity if using Soapcalc.net. I usually stay at 3% superfat or less for clear soap. Just understand at that 3% superfat, you may get some cloudy soap at the top once you add EO's or FOs. Some EOs and FOs cloud, some do not. I find with mine, though, that 3% does not cloud. I do not use FOs, though, so that may make the difference.

One caveat, however, is that I zap test. I do not use pheolpthalien. So, I truly can't tell you if it will turn pink or not. Another thread here said that some paper towels turn the pheno. pink. Be sure it is the soap turning it pink rather than whatever you have the soap on.

I have made Bastille liquid soap, laundry soap, dish soap, shampoo gel, body wash, and many, many formulations of hand soap using no neutralization. Just using Soapcalc.net or SummerBeeMeadow advanced lye calculators. Just be sure you check that 90% box.

FGOriold · Aug 8, 2014

Yes - make sure you are using either summerbee meadow, brambleberry or soapcalc (90%) calculators and make sure your measurements are correct (measuring in grams is best for accuracy). When you say the phenol turns pink, what do you mean? Is the paste you are dropping it on pink or is it the material (paper towel, etc) around the paste getting light to medium pink ring? If is is the latter, that is fine as you can have that pink ring and not have a lye excess. Paper towels especially will do this.

Kyra · Aug 8, 2014

Well, I tested in two different ways:

1. The paste made the paper towel turn pink, but I didn't examine it closely to see if the paste itself was also pink. I just saw the pink and figured there is still lye that needs to be neutralized.

2. After diluting 1 oz of soap to test for clarity, I put two drops of Phenolphthalein in the diluted soap and I noticed the diluted soap took a pinky shade. After I add the neutralizer, no more pink in the diluted soap.

This is at 0% SF, calculated with the SBM calc. with 90% purity of KOH and measured in grams (I always soap in grams).

Thank you so much ladies for chiming in!

Susie · Aug 8, 2014

The first thing I see is that you used 0% superfat. Even with a good lye calculator and a good scale, that is just a bit too close to the line for my comfort. I am VERY determined to avoid neutralizing my liquid soap. I have only gone to 0% once, and then I figured out I could use 0.5% and not get zapped.

Kyra · Aug 8, 2014

Susie, I am getting to that level of determination in regards to LS

I just don't want to deal with neutralizing anymore. I will try small batches using different levels of SF, but you just feel like going urggghhhh when you think about the hours needed to do all that. With CP soap is so much easier to experiment :wink:

Kyra · Aug 11, 2014

Ok ladies, I made a batch of castile soap this weekend using 3% SF and and 50/50 glycerin/water for the lye solution, I cooked it for 3.5 hours even if it was waaaay done, looking almost like honey, super translucent and waxy. I did not neutralize. 24 hours later, I check the PH and I do the phenol test for the diluted soap. Here is what I got: PH at 9.78, and phenol still turning a bit pink. I might be getting paranoid here, but I want to make sure everything is the way it should be. What do you think?

Kyra

Susie · Aug 11, 2014

That is a perfectly acceptable pH for liquid soap. Go dilute. Good job!

Kyra · Aug 12, 2014

Super! Susie, thank you so much!

Susie said:
That is a perfectly acceptable pH for liquid soap. Go dilute. Good job!

KatieShephard · Sep 25, 2014

need some ls help

I'm also going to he trying a Bastille LS recipe today. Either 80/20, or 70/30...OO and CO. Which would be better for dish soap? I too don't want to bother with neutralizing, so ill be doing either a 2%or 3% sf. Even with this small amount of sf, will it leave an oily film on my dishes?

shunt2011 · Sep 25, 2014

I wouldn't go more than 1% for dish soap. You really don't want any extra oils in dish soap. That's my opinion anyway. SF for my skin but not my dishes.

KatieShephard · Sep 25, 2014

shunt2011 said:
I wouldn't go more than 1% for dish soap. You really don't want any extra oils in dish soap. That's my opinion anyway. SF for my skin but not my dishes.

Thanks Shunt. One more question...if it doesn't pass the zap test, even after going through all the stages and it's now in paste form (say, I made a slight error in measurements), how much borax or citric acid (I've seen both used as neutralizers) would I add to a 1 pound batch of oils? 1 tsp ppo?

Susie · Sep 25, 2014

I would make a 0.5-1% superfat, tops, for dish soap.

This is copied from one of DeeAnna's nuggets of knowledge that I can't find the original thread for:

Is this what y'all are talking about?

6 g NaOH will be neutralized by 10 g citric acid
8 g KOH will be neutralized by 10 g citric acid

How much citric acid did you use to (over) neutralize your soap? That will give you an upper limit on how much KOH you need to fix the problem. I'd mix that amount of KOH in water, add about half of that solution to your LS, stir, and see what happens.

The fatty acids you have created should react fairly quickly with KOH (or NaOH) as long as there's enough mixing going on so the KOH and the fatty acids can "find" each other. Obviously you don't want to mix so furiously that you whip up a lot of suds, but you do need to mix well.

Hope this helps!

Neutralizing LS - yet another question :)

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