SF%, KOH and preservatives.

Obsidian · Feb 17, 2014

I've noticed on a lot of recipes using KOH, you need to test for high PH and somehow neutralize the excess lye left in soap. Is there a reason people don't use a SF in KOH recipes? If I do use a SF, do I need to worry about neutralizing it?
Also, since this is a soft soap, does it need a preservative? Not sure if its what everyone calls a cream soap. There is no extra water added after the cook. I'm using this recipe but with a couple oil changes, a 5% SF and I'm doing HP.
http://wikitalks.com/2013/06/honey-beldi-hair/

FGOriold · Feb 17, 2014

If you superfat a liquid soap than the fats that are not saponified are left floating in the soap. If you superfat too much or use too many or too high a percentage of oils with unsapanifiables, the unsaponified excess becomes very visible. They can cloud the soap or end up settling out to the bottom. Superfatting liquid soap is not the same as superfatting CP soap because of that. Neutralizing excess Koh should not have to be done if you calculate with a 0 - 2% superfat, maybe even 3% (I never superfat). I find using glycerin in place of at least 50% of the water also creates a soap that is within an acceptable ph for liquid soap so that no neutralization is necessary if you calculate your KOH amount properly.

As for preservatives, there are those who say you must preserve liquid soap and those who say it is not necessary. You will find arguments on both sides.

Obsidian · Feb 17, 2014

I never thought about the excess oil floating but it makes sense, it also explains why I dislike liquid soap so much, I like a high SF or else homemade is just too drying.

I know liquid soap needs preservatives but what about the paste soap in that link?

FGOriold · Feb 17, 2014

Taking a quick look at that website, I am not familiar with 2 of those oils, but the method seems to be cold process liquid soap paste making. Looks like they just don't dilute the paste. I would not think a preservative is necessary just like with cold process soap as you are not adding water to it after the paste is made. They seem to use the paste as is without dilution which would be just a very, very concentrated version of it diluted. It looks like the resulting paste if very gel like, many pastes come out very hard and you would not be able to use them without diluting them first.

cm4bleenmb · Feb 17, 2014

I don't see why that would need a preservative, especially if you use it as a paste. Although I would probably want a way to get it out of the container to use it without getting water into it as you might when using it in the shower.

I think this recipe sounds interesting but will not be doing much soap experimenting as we are getting ready for a move from MI to CA. If you make this, please let us know how it turns out.

One thing that intrigued me is the use of mustard oil, so I looked it up and the claims for it are that it stimulates hair growth, darkens it naturally, and when massaged into the scalp helps with dryness and balding because of it's nutrient content and anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. That all sounds good to me but it can be an irritant so you should be careful about it until you find out if you can tolerate it or not. One article recommended putting a drop or two in your belly button before you go to bed so you never have dry or cracked lips. Hmmmm.

Obsidian · Feb 17, 2014

Thanks, I was hoping I wouldn't have to use a preservative. I did make this today but I subbed the mustard and camelina oils with avocado and shea butter.

The finished paste is similar to regular HP, maybe a bit stiffer. I'm kinda hoping that it will loosen up as it cures. I did HP the whole mess, If I make it again I will do it CP and see if it makes a difference in how soft the finished paste is.

Good though about not getting water in it from the shower, I'll just take a spoonfull in a small dish.
It has a nice soft lather, can't wait to give it a proper try in a couple weeks. I don't have the patience to wait 4 weeks for a new formula.

MzMolly65 · Feb 17, 2014

Obsidian said:
I've noticed on a lot of recipes using KOH, you need to test for high PH and somehow neutralize the excess lye left in soap. Is there a reason people don't use a SF in KOH recipes? If I do use a SF, do I need to worry about neutralizing it?
Also, since this is a soft soap, does it need a preservative? Not sure if its what everyone calls a cream soap. There is no extra water added after the cook. I'm using this recipe but with a couple oil changes, a 5% SF and I'm doing HP.
http://wikitalks.com/2013/06/honey-beldi-hair/

Obsidian .. When I made her Beldi for body recipe I superfatted and didn't need to neutralize. I don't know about preservatives but I've been using my soap since December and it hasn't grown any friends (yet!)

I'm dying to know how your's turned out, especially with the change in oils. I'm going to make mine (when I'm able to walk again) with the original oils (I might leave out the CO) so maybe you'd like to trade some small samples back and forth so we can compare and see the difference?? Sorry mods, if that's not allowed please let me know and I'll remove it from this post.

Obsidian · Feb 17, 2014

Have you ever tried yours on your hair? I really like my shampoo bars but sometimes I'd like something a bit more cleansing and I think this will work well. I'm also curious about using a little for a sugar scrub.

I'd be happy to do a trade when mine is ready. I generally don't find any reason to use expensive oils in soap, the changes I made did very little to change the soapcal numbers. The mustard might be interesting to try directly on the scalp though.

MzMolly65 · Feb 17, 2014

Have you ever tried yours on your hair?

I did and wouldn't recommend it .. but after I tried it I read that you can use the hair version on body but not use the body version on hair. The body version leaves me squeaky clean but not dry .. on the other hand, my hair felt like straw.

The mustard oil is supposed to be the most necessary oil in the hair recipe and I know the people that work at the store where I bought it use the mustard oil directly on their scalp and hair, like a balm or conditioner. I can't say it's the oil but they all have very thick, healthy looking hair.

grayceworks · Feb 17, 2014

Over on the LS yahoo group, they've been discussing that a 3% SF does OK without too much excess oil, and without need for neutralizing, and have included some great recipe ideas to that effect for newbies to help make getting started with LS less complicated. They also still debate the pros and cons of preserving diluted LS. Interesting to follow the debates.

Obsidian · Feb 18, 2014

MzMolly, does yours lather well? I was impatient and tried some on my hair this morning. It hardly lathers at all, hope it gets better with age. I do like how my hair feels though, it was easier to brush and is behaving nicely.

MzMolly65 · Feb 18, 2014

grayceworks said:
Over on the LS yahoo group, they've been discussing that a 3% SF does OK without too much excess oil, and without need for neutralizing,

Yeah .. to be honest I'm not sure this soap falls into the same category as LS except for the fact that it's made with KOH. I superfatted my paste at 8% and it's great, not oily at all.

MzMolly65 · Feb 18, 2014

Obsidian said:
MzMolly, does yours lather well?

umm .. Nope, LOL .. but I don't care about bubbles because I'm all about saving my dry alligator skin so as long as it's not drying me out I'm thrilled and the body version is beautiful. I've stopped needing moisturizer at all, even face and my skin feels so clean. No pimples since I started using the body version.

Did you see the thread for Beldi? http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=401715#post401715 Pilar from Spain is posting about Beldi. She might be able to help you with Beldi for hair .. or maybe they don't call the hair version Beldi because the Beldi recipe that Pilar posted has actual olive meat in it. I'm dying to try the recipe and can't wait to get this broken ankle up and walking again.

Obsidian · Feb 18, 2014

Hmm, I wonder why it doesn't lather better? It has a high number on soapcalc. How much do you use per shower? I used roughly 1 heaping Tbsp and it was enough for 2 hair washing with left over. I don't want to over do it and use it up too fast.

I saw that post but I don't think I'd like it with the olive meat in it, looks kinda gross and I really dislike 100% OO soap, it dries me out.
I think if I make some for my body, I will increase the SF some and maybe do it HP so I can use avocado oil for the SF.

MzMolly65 · Feb 18, 2014

Obsidian said:
How much do you use per shower?

Just a tiny bit, less than a teaspoon for my whole body. Sometimes I just dip my scrubbie in it (it's in a small yoghurt type container), then I get more of a lather.

SF%, KOH and preservatives.

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