Castile vs Bastille. . . That is the Question

I am debating on whether I should make castile soap, but I am discouraged by the slime and lack of bubbles factor of castile. I've never made castile soap, and 6 month+ cure time is way too long for me to wait to find out whether I would like it or not. I love super mild and moisturizing soap, but I love bubbles and big lather, too. So, I would like to know how many of you prefer bastille to castile. Castile vs bastille, that is the question. Thanks for your input.

Soap can be conditioning, but not moisturising!

I love castile and the wait is not an issue, as many good things take time ... and castile is just another one of them.

Personally I prefer using soap that his highly fragranced and coloured, but my skin appears able to cope with just about anything I put on it. Whereas I have family and friends who are thrilled to be able to use a soap that's castile ... as they prefer that to many of the tars they usually have to use.

I've never made a soap I've intentionally called bastile and realise as a madeup term it means many things.

I believe the only way you'll know whether you like castile is to make it, cure it and try it. Until then, you'll be left wondering!

I cannot answer as I have never made castille!

The only true Castile I ever made, I was not happy with. Replace the water with buttermilk--nice soap. Add carrot powder and honey to that mix and you have nice mild soap with some lather (after long cure--can't get away from that)

Bastille can be good or not depending on what you formulate, so it is hard to say Bastille is better cuz some are and some are just not such great soap.

I agree with ToniD. I'm don't care for a true Castile but I've added buttermilk and really like it. I've also made one with cream and oatmeal but I haven't tried that one yet.

I didn't like bastile until I came up with a different recipe. I don't know if it's the balance of the oils or if it's the addition of hemp milk but I love the feel and the lather of this soap. However, just because I think it's wonderful doesn't mean someone else would like it. It's personal preference.

I voted for the last choice- liking both for different reasons.

I love using a true Castile, but only with one of those pouf things (my regular facial cloth does not provide enough friction to get the lather going). Without the friction from the pouf, the lather is pretty dismal to non-existant with my hard water, and what small amount of lather it does produce is thin and goopy. With the pouf, however, things are much different. I get copious amounts of luscious, creamy/bubbly lather that quite borders on decadent. The only problem is that I don't like poufs as much as my facial cloth. The cloth is more gentle to my skin.

My Bastile recipe which contains 50% OO has plenty enough lovely, creamy/bubbly lather to keep me happy without the need of excess friction from a pouf, and it doesn't take so long to cure.


IrishLass

I voted for loving neither; my other soaps are much better - but that doesn't take into account label appeal. My customers love the 100% OO castile so I make that, and I make one with a milk in place of the water which isn't a castile, exactly so I just call it olive oil soap.

My MIL LOVES my 100% OO Castile, so I will always make it for her. She is scent- sensitive and has very dry skin, so I don't fragrance it either. She doesn't consider it slime, but silk. It's all in the perception, I guess.

I hesitated on trying Castile, too, but the time goes by whether or not you make the soap, so try a small batch and see for yourself.
Personally, I like the 100% OO soap, but I like my 'regular' soaps better.

The past couple months I've seen the term "Bastile" (was w/o a puter for quite awhile before Sept) and have not been sure what it was exactly. I figured that it was Castille with some other ingredients.

What is Bastile?
IDLaura

GoatSoaperLaura said:

The past couple months I've seen the term "Bastile" (was w/o a puter for quite awhile before Sept) and have not been sure what it was exactly. I figured that it was Castille with some other ingredients.

What is Bastile?
IDLaura

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You're on the right track. The term 'Bastile' is a made up, tongue-in-cheek term coined by a fellow soaper as a joke to describe a Castile that has been '*******ized' by adding other ingredients to it such as milk or oats or honey, etc.... and/or lowering the % of olive oil and adding other oils in its place to make up the difference.

IrishLass

That's right, Castille is the french word to describe soap from Castilla, Spain, which is (or was back when the term was first used) made with 100% olive oil. It is OK to scent it, but it cannot have other carrier oils.

I have no idea if there is a standard for Bastille. Some use 70% OO and something else, which can be any other oil or oils, as far as I understand.

Will have to try some

Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions. I have a few batches of bastille curing, but I will just have to try making some castile to satisfy my curiosity. Keep the votes coming everyone, this is very fascinating.

green soap said:

I have no idea if there is a standard for Bastille. Some use 70% OO and something else, which can be any other oil or oils, as far as I understand.

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Since the word, 'Bastile' itself is not a true 'official', standard term for a soap, there's really no official/standard 'Bastile' formula. It varies from soaper to soaper, although most would probably agree that olive oil should be the predominant oil in the formula. My own 'Bastile', which I prefer to call a 'Castile-type' among my non-soaper friends to avoid confusion with the infamous, historical Parisian fortress/prison of the same name (yes- I've been asked if it's prison soap! ) , contains 50% OO and smaller amounts of other oils/butters. I've made other types of 'Bastiles" ranging anywhere from 50% to 80%, but I really like my 50% best.


IrishLass

IrishLass said:

You're on the right track. The term 'Bastile' is a made up, tongue-in-cheek term coined by a fellow soaper as a joke to describe a Castile that has been '*******ized' by adding other ingredients to it such as milk or oats or honey, etc.... and/or lowering the % of olive oil and adding other oils in its place to make up the difference.

IrishLass

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Thanks for the answer. I figured it was that. But then thought it might have been some kind of soap that had been made in the Bastille (the french prison) that was similar to the Spanish Castile soap. The old brainpan tends to go off on tangents when I'm tired ;-)

When I voted, I went with my own recipes, cause I really do have a wonderful couple that my customers love! I did make Castile once and Bastille many times and I prefer the Bastille better.
IDLaura

I havn't seen a castile soap at the store that is just olive oil and lye.

Dr. Bronner's Soaps say they're castile soap, but olive oil is the 3rd or 4th ingredient. Same goes for the Dessert Essence brand (which I love).

From what I've read, the def. of castile soap is that it only contains olive oil and lye w/ no scent. But I've read that people refer to castile as vegtable based soap without the use of animal fats. So I guess it depends on the def. you choose??

One book I have read, describes castile as being a soap containing more than 60% olive oil.

G. Man said:

I havn't seen a castile soap at the store that is just olive oil and lye.

Dr. Bronner's Soaps say they're castile soap, but olive oil is the 3rd or 4th ingredient. Same goes for the Dessert Essence brand (which I love).

From what I've read, the def. of castile soap is that it only contains olive oil and lye w/ no scent. But I've read that people refer to castile as vegtable based soap without the use of animal fats. So I guess it depends on the def. you choose??

One book I have read, describes castile as being a soap containing more than 60% olive oil.

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I agree- a commercial soap labeled as Castile (at least here in the USA) that contains only olive oil and lye is a rare find. My healthfood store carries a Castile that is just olive oil and lye (and a handful of others that don't), but I can't remember the maker of it. I'll look again next time I go there.

The term 'Castile' is a rather nebulous term, at least in the USA. I did some amateur sleuthing on it a few years ago and I found out that the FTC here in the US (the US Federal Trade Commission) actually tried to protect the term 'Castile' back in the late 1920's when they slapped the Kirk's soap company with a 'cease and desist' order from labeling their soap 'Castile' when it actually had no olive oil in it (even back then the argument raged).

In my online sleuthing on some .gov sites I found out that the case was settled in 1932 when the 'cease and desist' order was reversed. The reversal was handed down when a pre-existing circular published in 1923 by the US Dept of Commerce, Bureau of Standards was brought up at the trial. This is what it said in the circular (bolding mine):

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, BUREAU OF STANDARDS
Circular No.62, “Soap,” 3d edition, published January 24, 1923, at p.9:
“Castile soap was originally made from low-grade olive oils. The name now represents a type of soap, the term “castile’ being applied to a soap intended for toilet or household use, sold usually in large, unwrapped, unperfumed bars, which are cut up when sold or when used. It is often drawn directly from the kettle without ‘crutching’, but is sometimes crutched a little or even enough to make it float and is sometimes
milled. It is also sold in small bars, both wrapped and unwrapped. The type is not one easily defined, so now when made from olive oil it is invariably sold as olive-oil castile There are soaps made entirely from coconut oil which are sold as coconut castiles or hard-water castiles. Many other castiles are made from a mixture of coconut oil and tallow.”

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A couple of petitions were filed against the reversal, but the ruling of 1932 was allowed to stand (and still stands as far as I've been able to detect). That would explain why Kirk's and Dr. Bronner can legally use the name 'Castile' in their soap in the USA even though they are not 100% OO.


On the Kirks site the following can be found in their FAQ page :

What does Castile mean?

Today, Castile refers to soaps made without animal fats.

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I would add the caveat that the above quote from Kirk's only applies in the US where the term 'Castile' is not protected. I'm sure soap makers from other countries would take issue with Kirk's definition, as would many handmade soap makers here in the US, but what can I say? It is what it is (at least here in the US).

IrishLass

This is very interesting IrishLass, thank you for sharing your research. I have wandered too, why Dr Bronners (a fine soap by the way) insists on being called Castile, when it is not. Now we know!

By the way, Castile was first made in Spain because there is an abundance of olives, and olive oil presses. Pomace always gets produced, but no one wants it for food, so it is very cheap. On the other hand, animal fats are pricey/scarce and people seem to enjoy eating them (think chorizo, salami, and pernil). Coconuts or palms do not grow much in Spain either. 100% olive oil soap was first made to utilize the resources at hand, not to make the 'ideal' soap.

It is gentle and nice for babies. I admire the patience to wait 6 months too.

I have tried 1 castile soap recipe from Millers page, NO PALM. It contained OO, CO, Soybean oil.

At first I hated it, as is was very drying on the skin.
However after 6-7 months I love it for a shaving soap.

I prefer fragrances in my soap. My skin can take pretty much anything.

I did give my castile soap to a friend that cannot even use dove unscented, as she has super sensitive skin, and she LOVED it.
Her only complaint was that it melted in the shower (which was her hubby's fault)! LOL

Sugar added to Castile Rebatch - Slimy?

Hi

Would adding sugar to Castile rebatch - (made with just Olive Oil) make a difference with lather & that slimy feel?

I love my Castile Soap, but I think some of my customers would prefer more lather. I don't want to refer to the lather as slimy.

I'm not sure how to describe the lather in Castile Soap - calling it slimy doesn't sound too appealing, but I feel like I should let my customers know the lather isn't the same as soaps with coconut oil in them.

Any ideas?

Thank you,
lily

I am a hardcore fan of 100% olive oil soap. This past December, I made some 100% Castile and poured it into Christmas tree molds and am just gonna store them for next year. One year cure will make them nice. Using a poofy-thingy really helps with the lather of a 100% Castile bar.

On the other hand, I love 100% CO soap because of the lovely bubbles.

I personally think any soap that's at least 90% olive oil could be considered Castile, but that's my own personal definition.