High cleansing numbers

Katie-Mae · Mar 18, 2014

HI,

I have been playing around on Soapcal. trying to come up with a recipe with no coconut oil or one using under 10% coconut oil.
everything I have calculated seems to have very high cleansing numbers
I am wondering wouldn't that be drying as well? I have never paid a lot of attention to the cleansing numbers in my recipes most usually stay around 12 to 15 but I am coming up with numbers like 27 and 28 with the lower coconut percentage.
Maybe because I am trying to add extras to bump up the lather?

Me and my sister are super sensitive to coconut oil and although I have made soap for a few years and started selling it about a year ago I have never tried to make a specific soap for my dry itchy sensitive skin until now
My originally started making soaps because I have migraines that are brought on by fragrances so I am not able to use perfumes and hair products or air fresheners so I began research on making my own cleaners and soaps and became addicted lol

Anyway any suggestions on a coconut oil free soap that actually lathers would be greatly appreciated! : )

AustinStraight · Mar 18, 2014

Try substituting palm kernel oil! I'm gonna order some soon to see how I like it because it's cheaper than coconut oil and very similar. I think it has slightly lower hardness and cleansing values. Castor oil is very good for a thick, stable lather. Soaping101 has a bastille soap recipe with coconut oil, olive oil, and castor oil. If you're trying to avoid coconut oil, you could replace all or most of the coconut oil with palm kernel oil.

UPDATE:

I re-calculated the soaping101 bastille recipe and replaced the coconut with palm kernel oil. Here is the new recipe with palm kernel oil:

2 oz castor oil
8 oz palm kernel oil
22 oz olive oil
4.41 oz lye
10.56 oz distilled water
Superfatted at 5%

The recipe with palm kernel oil is only very slightly different: it has 30 hardness instead of 31, 16 cleansing instead of 17, and 67 conditioning instead of 65.

Lin · Mar 18, 2014

Just wanted to say fragrances are also a migraine trigger for me. I can't stand the detergent isle at the store. Do you soap with fragrances? I'm wanting to get a respirator so I could use fragrance oils, and EOs that aren't scents I specifically like for sales.

I was at whole foods today and had forgotten my lip balm so I went down the soap/lotion/etc isle and picked up a hand balm tester to put some on (I have an obsessive habit to pick and bite skin off my lips, so they were painfully raw) and all the scents were killer. I could not get out fast enough.

Obsidian · Mar 18, 2014

Palm kernel oil is a great substitute for coconut oil, I use it in all my recipes except for salt bars. Palm kernel makes a high cleansing, drying soap much like coconut. Unfortunately, a soap with lots of bubbles will have a high cleansing number. You can use castor at max 10% to increase lather, 1 tsp sugar PPO will also help lather.
Soap with low lather will still clean you so don't stress too much over the numbers, they are more of a guideline anyways.

Katie-Mae · Mar 18, 2014

Lin said:
Just wanted to say fragrances are also a migraine trigger for me. I can't stand the detergent isle at the store. Do you soap with fragrances? I'm wanting to get a respirator so I could use fragrance oils, and EOs that aren't scents I specifically like for sales.

I was at whole foods today and had forgotten my lip balm so I went down the soap/lotion/etc isle and picked up a hand balm tester to put some on (I have an obsessive habit to pick and bite skin off my lips, so they were painfully raw) and all the scents were killer. I could not get out fast enough.

Yes I started using fragrances when I found the brambleberry website and HAD to try the recipes I use a mask when I use fragrances and I have learned real quick what fragrances are going to be bad before I even open them! Sometime I will get a fragrance that is killer even with a mask I just try to walk away to get a breath and work fast! sounds crazy I know Lol
I keep all my oils in plastic containers with lids and in a pantry in a spare room and I cure my soaps in the very back room of my house and keep the doors shut!
I no longer do our shopping because I cannot stand the detergent isle or the isle with the cleaners. I started making my own laundry detergant because my sheets would give me a migraine at night and I would find myself changing shirts through the day because I could smell the detergent!

AustinStraight · Mar 18, 2014

Speaking of high cleansing numbers, I hear pure coconut oil soap with a 1% superfat makes great laundry soap ;-)

Katie-Mae · Mar 18, 2014

AustinStraight said:
Try substituting palm kernel oil! I'm gonna order some soon to see how I like it because it's cheaper than coconut oil and very similar. I think it has slightly lower hardness and cleansing values. Castor oil is very good for a thick, stable lather. Soaping101 has a bastille soap recipe with coconut oil, olive oil, and castor oil. If you're trying to avoid coconut oil, you could replace all or most of the coconut oil with palm kernel oil.

UPDATE:

I re-calculated the soaping101 bastille recipe and replaced the coconut with palm kernel oil. Here is the new recipe with palm kernel oil:

2 oz castor oil
8 oz palm kernel oil
22 oz olive oil
4.41 oz lye
10.56 oz distilled water
Superfatted at 5%

The recipe with palm kernel oil is only very slightly different: it has 30 hardness instead of 31, 16 cleansing instead of 17, and 67 conditioning instead of 65.

I have palm kernel flakes that's what I was using earlier in the soapcal. along with regular palm oil. I will have to run your recipe through soapcal with my palm kernel flakes : )
I have been using babassu oil in place of half the coconut in my recent recipes but I am still so dry and itchy I almost cant stand it. I will wash with my soap for 1 or 2 night then I have to use a store bough soap to get a little moisture and I have been trying to eliminate store bought chemical packed soaps and cleaners from my home.

Katie-Mae · Mar 18, 2014

So if Palm kernel is drying like coconut oil is there really a point in subbing it for the coconut oil? I was thinking maybe a mix of palm oil and palm kernel oil or palm kernel flakes but that's when I started getting those high cleaning number which would strip all the oils from your body so either way my soap is drying.:-(

Katie-Mae · Mar 18, 2014

AustinStraight said:
Speaking of high cleansing numbers, I hear pure coconut oil soap with a 1% superfat makes great laundry soap ;-)

I have heard the same right now Im making the liquid soap by grating my old melt and pour soaps I made ages ago that got shoved in a closet LOL
Cooking it in water and adding washing soda and borax have been wanting to make some with my left over lye soaps if I can.
Have you made any? : )

AustinStraight · Mar 18, 2014

If you're really worried about it being too drying, you could increase the superfat to 7%. Don't change palm kernel to palm kernel flakes if you run it through soapcalc again, palm kernel oil and palm kernel flakes are the same thing besides the shape. The "palm kernel flakes" in soapcalc are hydrogenated palm kernel flakes - different from regular palm kernel flakes, which are really just little flakes of palm kernel oil. Non-flaked palm kernel oil comes in a big hard block that's near-impossible to cut so it's recommended to get the flakes. Unless, of course, your palm kernel flakes are hydrogenated - in which case, ignore my rambling :smile:

As long as you have a superfat, the soap won't exactly strip *all* the oil from your body. There's always a little bit left. You said you were sensitive to coconut oil & I thought you meant you had a coconut allergy, which is why I recommended subbing it for palm kernel oil. Either way, using palm kernel oil will help cut the cost

My mom makes her own laundry soap using that same recipe, soap flakes + washing soda + borax! She got some soap nuts today to test out. She's been using Kirk's soap though, not homemade coconut soap.

cmzaha · Mar 18, 2014

Katie-Mae said:
HI,

I have been playing around on Soapcal. trying to come up with a recipe with no coconut oil or one using under 10% coconut oil.
everything I have calculated seems to have very high cleansing numbers
I am wondering wouldn't that be drying as well? I have never paid a lot of attention to the cleansing numbers in my recipes most usually stay around 12 to 15 but I am coming up with numbers like 27 and 28 with the lower coconut percentage.
Maybe because I am trying to add extras to bump up the lather?

Anyway any suggestions on a coconut oil free soap that actually lathers would be greatly appreciated! : )

I am a tad confused. If you are onl using 10% coconut oil you would not have high cleansing numbers unless you are using PKO or Babassu, which are both very similiar to CO as far as cleansing. I have a recipe I make that has 9 for cleansing, 14 bubbly, 27 creamy. I add in sugar to boost bubbles. It is a soap I only superfat at 1% or to me it feels oily and does not rinse clean, in my opinion. But it is a really nice gentle soap not at all drying. You will certainly have a trade-off when it comes to gentle versus high bubbly lather. I am doing some more test batches to see if the high superfat (lol, to me 5% is high), affects lather. I know my test olive oil soap with a -30 superfat lathers great after a month of curing and is not zappy

Katie-Mae · Mar 19, 2014

I haven't made any soap yet with the 10% coconut that's kinda why I was asking questions I was using soapcalc trying to come up with something but yes I put in babassu oil and palm kernel as well as Palm oil trying to come up with something.
I always super fat between 5 and 6 I am with you those are high to me but the more reading I do about the drying
I am experiencing it seems everyone suggested super fatting at high levels 7% and above!

I have been using babassu for 1/2 of my coconut in my recent recipes but my coconut oils are still between 15 and 20%
I can tell a bit of a difference between my soap with 15% coconut versus the 20% but I have never used PKO that's why I thought I might calculate a recipe with PKO, babassu and 10% coconut.

Another thing I have been thinking is maybe Crisco?

Obsidian · Mar 19, 2014

There is no reason to use PKO, babassu and coconut, they are very similar to each other and do about the same thing. Simplify it and only use one, see if that works. Even if you do use all three, you want to stay at 20% max, even combined. If you use 15% coconut and 15% babassu, its no wonder your soap is drying. Personally, I would try 15% PKO and leave out the co and babassu, see if maybe that would be better for you.

I'm one who always uses a higher superfat, at least 8%. If my soap has a cleansing number above 15, I will SF at 10%. I even tried 25% Sf once but it was too much, left me feeling not so clean.

engblom · Mar 19, 2014

Check out this answer I wrote earlier about cleansing values: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=409979&postcount=10

The cleansing value at soapcalc.net is not telling much at all. Also soapcalc.net does not show all fatty acids. For example coconut oil is having 13% higly cleansing fatty acids not even mentioned at soapcalc.net. With their own flawed way of calculating the cleansing value, coconut would have 80 and not 67.

Katie-Mae · Mar 19, 2014

OK well I started doing the 1/2 coconut and 1/2 babassu because through all my reading and research I had found a site where one woman said if her recipe called for say 10oz coconut oil she used 5oz coconut and 5oz babassu and her reason for doing so was because the coconut was making her skin really dry and itchy so I figured I would give it a try.
I have been making a lot of beer soap and milk soaps lately most of them are still curing but I did test one last week that didn't dry me out as bad and lathered pretty good and it was 1/2 coconut oil and 1/2 babassu oil and I also used coco butter which I have gotten to like way more than shea butter for some reason.
I used no fragrance or colors except rose clay and use coconut milk and it was a bar that hardened really fast I only made a tiny batch to sell at the craft fair coming up now Im wishing I had made more : )

osso · Mar 19, 2014

Agree with upping the SF if you find the coconut drying. I usually do 7-9%.

Obsidian · Mar 19, 2014

If you have a coconut sensitivity, you should just replace it altogether. I'm not sensitive to coconut oil and use salt bars almost exclusivly but I could really tell a difference in my regular soap when I replaced the CO with palm kernel. Its seems less drying even though the cleansing numbers are similar.

I may have misunderstood your post when you said you replaced half you coconut with babassu. I understood it to be you were using 15-20% coconut oil and 15-20% babassu, that is a lot of cleansing power.

If you have really dry skin, try and drop the cleansing number down to 10-13 and SF a bit higher then you normally do.

engblom · Mar 19, 2014

Obsidian said:
If you have a coconut sensitivity, you should just replace it altogether. I'm not sensitive to coconut oil and use salt bars almost exclusivly but I could really tell a difference in my regular soap when I replaced the CO with palm kernel. Its seems less drying even though the cleansing numbers are similar.

I may have misunderstood your post when you said you replaced half you coconut with babassu. I understood it to be you were using 15-20% coconut oil and 15-20% babassu, that is a lot of cleansing power.

If you have really dry skin, try and drop the cleansing number down to 10-13 and SF a bit higher then you normally do.

The difference between CO and PKO is that CO is having more Capric and Caprylic fatty acids which are even stronger than what Lauric and Myristic are at cleansing. Here I have the values from soapcalc and then Caprylic + Capric added to the value of soapcalc:

Coconut Oil: 67%+13% = 80% highly cleansing fatty acids
Palm Kernel Oil 65%+6% = 71% higlhy cleansing fatty acids

When you substitute CO for PKO, you get less bubbles too as those highly cleansing fatty acids provides bubbles also.

PKO is not the same as CO. Instead of substituting, you could just sligthly decrease the amount of CO and it would behave very similar to PKO.

Katie-Mae · Mar 19, 2014

OK well now with all the suggestions I have a million ideas going on in my head.
I will be dreaming about soap recipes and keeping myself up at night LOL

I think I will try upping my super fat first and see how that goes since I still have a new bucket of coconut oil haha.

Thank you to everyone for all the suggestions and new ideas.

Jeanea · Mar 20, 2014

Katie-Mae said:
So if Palm kernel is drying like coconut oil is there really a point in subbing it for the coconut oil? I was thinking maybe a mix of palm oil and palm kernel oil or palm kernel flakes but that's when I started getting those high cleaning number which would strip all the oils from your body so either way my soap is drying.:-(

I was working on a recipe the other day and found that palm kernel flakes had a cleaning values of 90, pko and co was much less.

High cleansing numbers

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