Can using lactic acid allow for more castor oil?

PuddinAndPeanuts · Jun 8, 2017

I'm trying to boost bubbles, but reduce drying. I'm at 10% castor oil now, which I believe is supposedly about the max without having ill effects from it. Im using sodium lactate though- does anyone know if that might allow me to get away with using a total of 12-15% castor oil?

The Efficacious Gentleman · Jun 8, 2017

What about using other things like sugar and/or koh to boost the bubbles?

Arimara · Jun 8, 2017

I say cut that castor back down unless you like having that much castor oil in a soap. That would be a very tacky soap. Sugar works pretty well, I have to admit, as does honey. You could also use beer, wine, or a milk in your soap for some added bubblage. Don't for get aloe vera juice or gel.

toxikon · Jun 8, 2017

What does the rest of your recipe look like? 15-20% Coconut oil/babassu/PKO will also provide plenty of bubbles without too much drying. It'd also be worthwhile to look at cutting down on lather-inhibiting oils/butters.

As far as I know, lactic acid and sodium lactate are different beasts. Sodium lactate makes your batter harden up a bit faster and provide smoother unmolding - I don't believe it effects lather much.

The Efficacious Gentleman · Jun 8, 2017

I think the goal is to add lactic acid and more lye to make sodium lactate

DeeAnna · Jun 8, 2017

"...I don't believe it effects lather much. ..."

A little is good, but more is not better. However you use sodium lactate, if too much is added to the soap, the soap bar can be soft/rubbery and the lather may be inhibited. It's a salt and, in general, that's what a salt does to soap.

WeaversPort · Jun 8, 2017

You might also lower your superfat. If you have a lot of conditioning oils, low lathering oils, and a high superfat, you'll be inhibiting lather even if you up the castor oil.

You might find this article helpful: http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/secret-to-the-best-soap-recipe/

toxikon · Jun 8, 2017

DeeAnna said:
"...I don't believe it effects lather much. ..."

A little is good, but more is not better. However you use sodium lactate, if too much is added to the soap, the soap bar can be soft/rubbery and the lather may be inhibited. It's a salt and, in general, that's what a salt does to soap.

Yes, After I posted I realized I should've added an asterisk to say "when used at the suggested 1tsp PPO". :mrgreen:

Saranac · Jun 8, 2017

PuddinAndPeanuts said:
I'm trying to boost bubbles, but reduce drying. I'm at 10% castor oil now, which I believe is supposedly about the max without having ill effects from it. Im using sodium lactate though- does anyone know if that might allow me to get away with using a total of 12-15% castor oil?

Is your intent to harden the soap with Sodium Lactate in order to counteract the softening of the bar from high amounts of castor?

PuddinAndPeanuts · Jun 8, 2017

Saranac said:
Is your intent to harden the soap with Sodium Lactate in order to counteract the softening of the bar from high amounts of castor?

Yes- exactly.
I'm already adding sugar. With high coconut and high pko, this is entirely too cleansing. I need to reduce one or both by a bit. Castor is the only one I know of that is decent for both lather and conditioning, so I want to put the maximum amount I can get away with.

WeaversPort · Jun 8, 2017

PuddinAndPeanuts said:
Yes- exactly.
I'm already adding sugar. With high coconut and high pko, this is entirely too cleansing. I need to reduce one or both by a bit. Castor is the only one I know of that is decent for both lather and conditioning, so I want to put the maximum amount I can get away with.

From what I've read, maximum seems to be 12% before the bar starts to get sticky, tacky, and rubbery.. I'm a beginner, but I've so far not found it necessary to go above 5-8%. The link I posted earlier gives a pretty good selection of oils and different tweaks to try.

What recipe are you using and how long are you curing it? If you post it here, that might help us figure out what is going on. If you're using lather supporting oils, plus castor, plus sugar additives AND you're not getting the kind of lather you're wanting - it makes me think there might be something else to look at altogether and adding more castor isn't the best solution. :think:

PuddinAndPeanuts · Jun 8, 2017

WeaversPort said:
From what I've read, maximum seems to be 12% before the bar starts to get sticky, tacky, and rubbery.. I'm a beginner, but I've so far not found it necessary to go above 5-8%. The link I posted about gives a pretty good selection of oils and different tweaks to try.

What recipe are you using? If you post it here, that might help us figure out what is going on. If you're using lather supporting oils, plus castor, plus sugar additives AND you're not getting the kind of lather you're wanting - it makes me think there might be something else to look at altogether and adding more castor isn't the best solution. :think:

This is what I used for a starting point:

20% coconut oil
15% Palm kernel oil
20% palm oil
35% olive oil
10% castor oil
Superfat at 5%
Sugar
Sodium lactate

It's drying- probably not as drying as you'd think- but enough that I need to bring it down.

PuddinAndPeanuts · Jun 8, 2017

WeaversPort said:
You might also lower your superfat. If you have a lot of conditioning oils, low lathering oils, and a high superfat, you'll be inhibiting lather even if you up the castor oil.

You might find this article helpful: http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/secret-to-the-best-soap-recipe/

The link doesn't work for me- I just get a blank page

WeaversPort · Jun 8, 2017

PuddinAndPeanuts said:
This is what I used for a starting point:

20% coconut oil
15% Palm kernel oil
20% palm oil
35% olive oil
10% castor oil
Superfat at 5%
Sugar
Sodium lactate

It's drying- probably not as drying as you'd think- but enough that I need to bring it down.

Do you any other oils available to you currently? You probably have an incredibly hard, white bar happening with such high palm, PKO, and coconut. That hardness may be part of what is making it hard to get a nice lather going. Do you have any almond, rice bran, or avocado oil? I'd consider substituting Avocado for PKO and possibly even lowering the castor to 8%.

If what you have is coconut, palm, PKO, olive, and castor -
You could probably drop the sugar, lower the castor oil, make the rest olive oil and find yourself something both more lathering and more conditioning. You might still want the sodium lactate to unmold a soap with that much olive oil, but I think it would put you going in a better direction. Then see if you want to add back in sugar or up the castor again.

It would then be:

20% coconut oil
22% palm oil
50% olive oil
8% castor oil
Sodium lactate
Superfat at 5%

Edited to add: You could even up the palm to 30%and lower the olive oil, if you wanted something harder faster.

toxikon · Jun 8, 2017

You could drop the OO lower or substitute for a different soft oil. OO in particular can make a slimey lather.

My go-to lard bar (60 lard / 20 co / 15 oo / 5 castor) provides big fluffy bubbles and rich lather for days. I also use sugar or aloe juice and 5% KOH.

Arimara · Jun 9, 2017

toxikon said:
What does the rest of your recipe look like? 15-20% Coconut oil/babassu/PKO will also provide plenty of bubbles without too much drying. It'd also be worthwhile to look at cutting down on lather-inhibiting oils/butters.

As far as I know, lactic acid and sodium lactate are different beasts. Sodium lactate makes your batter harden up a bit faster and provide smoother unmolding - I don't believe it effects lather much.

So far my bars have remained soft until around week 4, where they firm up. They're rocks by week 8.

WeaversPort said:
From what I've read, maximum seems to be 12% before the bar starts to get sticky, tacky, and rubbery.. I'm a beginner, but I've so far not found it necessary to go above 5-8%. The link I posted earlier gives a pretty good selection of oils and different tweaks to try.

What recipe are you using and how long are you curing it? If you post it here, that might help us figure out what is going on. If you're using lather supporting oils, plus castor, plus sugar additives AND you're not getting the kind of lather you're wanting - it makes me think there might be something else to look at altogether and adding more castor isn't the best solution. :think:

Please, don't go over that threshold. It's a waste.

PuddinAndPeanuts said:
This is what I used for a starting point:

20% coconut oil (Reduce to 10%)
15% Palm kernel oil (Reduce to 10%)
20% palm oil (Increase by 15%)
35% olive oil (Increase by 10%
10% castor oil (Reduce by 5%
Superfat at 5%
Sugar
Sodium lactate

It's drying- probably not as drying as you'd think- but enough that I need to bring it down.

It's as drying as I think and more so. I made my suggestions. PKO and CO work well together and you could safely reduce it further if you'd like. That castor oil amount might really break the deal for you but feel free to keep it at 10% if you really want to.

PuddinAndPeanuts · Jun 11, 2017

Thanks all- I appreciate the suggestions. I need to get to playing with all these ideas you all gave me.

Can using lactic acid allow for more castor oil?

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