Deanna, I have a question...

Has anyone done a -40 version with no extra water?
Or a 0 or 5% SF with all the extra water?
These are versions that may give an insight into whether the water is important for ditching the lye, or for not being slimy.

soap_rat said:

Has anyone done a -40 version with no extra water?
Or a 0 or 5% SF with all the extra water?
These are versions that may give an insight into whether the water is important for ditching the lye, or for not being slimy.

Click to expand...

I have done this recipe with the extra water and "proper" lye amount- it didn't work. I have experimented with different levels of water and "proper" lye- it didn't work. I am currently working backwards on sf and have recently done a 32.5% sf that looks the same, but I have not done the "goo" test yet I am fairly certain from the appearance of the soap, however, that the sf can be brought down to 32.5% and still keep the integrity of the soap.
Cheers!
Anna Marie

Nice to hear I'm not the only one getting these results -- thanks for sharing that, Newbie!!!

What I think is telling is that my second batch doesn't have a drop of actual olive in it, and the slippery feel of the bar and the lather are fairly similar -- not exact, but similar -- to the first batch that is all olive. I wondered, early on, whether this technique might work well for saponifying other soaps that are all or mostly liquid oils. I am curious to know if this superlye method could reduce the occurrence of DOS in oxidation-prone polyunsaturated oils. Hard to say at this point.

I think ... ugh, I forget now ... was it Bts? who used this method with a coconut oil recipe and got almost instantaneous saponification? I'd like to hear how that batch is doing and whether the maker would use this method again with a recipe that had most or all hard fats.

Aha! So what's still left to try is -40--or so--and normal water. (wait, maybe cmz's batch was something like that. Another thing to dig for!)

So we're establishing these data points. All soaps are olive unless noted (or unless I made a mistake).

Confirmed not gooey or probably not gooey:

-32.5% superlye + super water = probably non gooey (AnnaMarie)
-40% superlye + super water = non gooey (AnnaMarie)
-40% superlye + super water = at 2.5-3 wk: non gooey, no zap, good lather (DeeAnna, 24 feb 14)
-40% superlye + super water = at 2.5-3 wk: non gooey, no zap, good lather (DeeAnna -- HO safflower/lard blend, 26 feb 14)
-40% superlye + super water = non gooey (FlyByStarDancer)
-40% superlye + super water = non gooey (Newbie)
Anyone else?

In the works:

-30% superlye + normal (38%) lye concentration = at 2.5-3 wk: exterior no zap, good lather, v little slime, v low ash, v low water loss (Cmzaha, posts 30, 493, 23 feb 14)
-10% superlye + super water = ? (Krunt, posts 452/454/457)
-20% superlye + super water = ? (anyone?)
-40% superlye + super water = ? (FlyByStarDancer -- olive/soy blend)
-45% superlye + super water = at 2 wk: no zap (Btz -- sweet almond)
-45% superlye + super water = ? (Btz -- coconut)
-40% superlye + super water = ? (Seven -- pomace, ?)
Any updates on these soaps?

Confirmed gooey:

AnnaMarie: "...I have done this recipe with the extra water and "proper" lye amount- it didn't work. I have experimented with different levels of water and "proper" lye- it didn't work...."

normal superfat + super water = gooey (AnnaMarie)
normal superfat + normal water = gooey (AnnaMarie and many others)
-20% superlye + regular water = gooey (Krunt 442)
-20% superlye + regular water = gooey (AnnaMarie)

Tips:

Due to the unusual amount of water in this recipe, the final emulsion can break (separate) at trace or in the mold. Avoid furious stirring while bringing the soap to trace and avoid too much warmth during saponification.
If you stick blend, do so with restraint and moderation. Gentle hand stirring or the equivalent is all that's required. Take breaks -- you don't have to stir all the time.
Expect the time to trace to be 30-90 minutes with the average being about 60 minutes.
The soap batter should be somewhere between room temperature and comfortably warm to the touch. The lye solution can be quite hot when it's added to the oils -- the long mixing time and the added water will cool things down.

Cover the molded soap lightly or leave it uncovered at room temperature, as you wish.
Avoid gel and absolutely do not CPOP this recipe.
If the soap separates and weeps in the mold, let it drain freely as best you can. It will still make good soap.

Individual bar molds, log/loaf molds, and slab/tray molds all work fine.
Avoid ingredients that may cause the soap to heat up in the mold (sugars, beer, etc.). If you do add "heaters", then consider using a slab/tray mold or individual bar molds to keep the soap cooler during saponification.
Colors that normally change color with high alkalinity may act differently in this soap.

When handling this soap, use care -- expect this soap to be lye heavy for at least 2 weeks after unmolding.
This soap should be unmolded and cut while soft (within about 24 hours). It will cut cleanly like firm cheese. If you wait for it to be hard before unmolding and cutting, it can be so hard you may have some breakage at the bottom of the cut.
Allow the soap to dry in a well ventilated area away from pets, children, and unsuspecting adults.

Have I misspoken on any of these tips? Any more to add?

*** I will be continuing to edit this post as time goes on, so check back here to see the updates ***

DeeAnna said:

... I wondered, early on, whether this technique might work well for saponifying other soaps that are all or mostly liquid oils. I am curious to know if this superlye method could reduce the occurrence of DOS in oxidation-prone polyunsaturated oils. Hard to say at this point.
...

Click to expand...

DeeAnna -- remember when I rescued that rancid coconut oil by washing the oil and then doing a 0% SF so that it all got saponified so that there would be no oils left to go rancid ?

Still have bars of that and it is fine with no sign of DOS yet, although it has only been a few months, but still... it was just a 0% SF , possibly slightly lye heavy, since part of the final oil weight was a bit of water left from washing the oil... and no signs of any spots.

Also I don't remember where I read it, but it was a prelude to me trying that... that you can also simply use rancid oils and completely saponify them, and the soap will be fine as there's no free oils left in it to go rancid. I will see if I can find the reference. I think it was a question asked at some soaping conference or something on what to do with rancid oils, and the answer was to 'Make soap!' I'd been thinking of getting more super-cheap CO to play around with in making cleaning stuff, if just making sure it's all saponified can keep it spot-free...

I've been thinking about that as I've been following this thread, and wondering if I could use some of the oils that are prone to rancidity, if they were done like this. I hadn't tried before, as I figured it would be too harsh with no SF. But that was with normal lye and water ratios -- seems like maybe this method could work with that though, and still end up with a mild enough bar that won't get spots?

And if they're completely saponified, will the soap lose the possible benefits one would be trying to get from those oils? Since they're not free oils anymore, they're not leaving anything behind on the skin the way some SF'd soaps do...

Thought I would add some visuals to my results.

First pic is lather from my first batch, the half that did NOT weep or leak any lye water. It's about 3 weeks old.

Second picture is the lather from the other half of the same batch, the half that leaked a ton of lye water and is the swayback bar. Significantly different and lower lather (because there was less of an excess to saponify the more difficult to saponify oils?)

Third picture is from my rubber ball soap, that was made 4 or 5 days after the first batch- I'd have to check.

I worked up the lather the best I could in warm water. I didn't do X number of swipes and then X number of rubs. I figured I would work out each bar to the best of its ability!

My hands are very shiny right now but not particularly dry.

It was strange though. The first time I lathered up my swayback bar last night, I got decent lather. Same as tonight. I went through to try out different bars then decided to photograph. I couldn't get the same lather I had last night on the swayback bar, no matter how many times I lathered up for the pictures. Is it a shy soap?

DeeAnna, I would also add that this is a soap you can unmold and cut cleanly while soft (about 24 hours). If you wait for it to be hard before unmolding and cutting it can be so hard you may have some breakage at the bottom of the cut.

I have to add that cutting this soap early is a very interesting experience. It does not cut with any drag, as softer "normal recipe" bars would. It's been one of my favorite parts about this soap, as odd as that is to say.

DeeAnna, I often feel guilty for how much you do for us. I wish I could buy you a drink. I would even just mail you some cash so you could have a drink on me. (Or buy more soaping stuff!) Earlier I thought "we need a chart of all the attempts" and wandered off to make soap. You made the chart! <3

I have two batches that are younger than most all the others. I haven't tried soaping them up yet, but neither zap anymore. I will have that info to add in a day or two. In both of my batches the temps were usually over 100.

DeeAnna, I second Soap Rat's comments about all you do: you are awesome-truly! I actually feel pretty honored to be a part of a great group lab experiment like this, and I've enjoyed every minute of it. Truthfully, it also gives my mind something to chew on which has been lacking in my life. I love my friends, but they just aren't the kind of people I can talk science, history, or old classic books with. And forget critical thinking/logic....
Anyway, I did my official "goo" test this afternoon on my latest 32.5% sf soap. I completely submerged a bar in water for several hours. The results, a thicker layer of which I'm still wondering is glycerine- thicker then the goo test for the 38.5% bar. The layer was rather sweet and no zap- very mild. Lots of bubbly bubbles when I washed the layer off. The soap is drying now and is still hard. I do sense a bit of change though, and I am wondering if even going to 30% will still keep the integrity of the soap. DeeAnna, if you would like I will send you a bar from each of my batches (I'll pay) and you can see them for yourself. Just pm me
Cheers!
Anna Marie

DeeAnna said:

I think ... ugh, I forget now ... was it Bts? who used this method with a coconut oil recipe and got almost instantaneous saponification? I'd like to hear how that batch is doing and whether the maker would use this method again with a recipe that had most or all hard fats.

Click to expand...

I did that . The soap is very hard and still curing. It'll be 2 week tomorrow, so I'll do that zap test and lather test then. I'm not brave enough to try it before.

However I weigh the bar, it's down 30% from original weight.

@DeeAnna, I use -45% superfat for both DeaAnna, because I saw you soapcalc screencap (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=404391&postcount=124) and used that. I sundried 1 bar of the sweet almond one, and I think that's the only one that's ready to test. The others are still a little bit soft. Will let you guys know soon.

DeeAnna, why do you say not to use a slab mold? That was how I molded my first batch, and that turned out fine. If anything, it countered the fact that I had heaters in my soap (milk & honey), which allowed it to avoid gel.

thanks for posting the updates DeeAnna, you are super!

I am gonna update mine tomorrow by testing the lather on both soaps. will post later..

Hi, guys -- thank you for the compliments. I'm glad my summary is helpful to y'all. I was motivated to do it as much from self preservation as anything. I'm looking for patterns in the information, and finding data scattered amongst 480+ posts was driving me nutty. If I'm going nutty, I figure you are too.

I'm a scone making virgin and it's time that changed, so I'm going to make AnnaMarie's scones tonight. I'm going to add bits of homemade dried peaches to one batch and dried cherries to another. Yum!!!!! She shared her recipe here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=43191

But I'm planning a soapy experiment for later this week, once I get the details puzzled out. I'll share more when I get it going!

I hope you like the scones DeeAnna!

MzMolly -- I forgot about you!!! I'm sorry about that. Do you have any updates on your soap?

****

"...I couldn't get the same lather I had last night on the swayback bar, no matter how many times I lathered up for the pictures...."

Newbie -- I've been having the same issue. Sometimes the soap lathers, sometimes it doesn't. I am not sure about this ... still checking ... but I think maybe the surface of the soap has a lot of ash on or in it. Try gently scrubbing the soap bar to clean off the surface layer of "stuff", whatever it is. Also, experiment with adding a few drops of water as you lather up -- more than you'd use for another type of soap. It seems like this soap wants a lot of water to lather well.

"...this is a soap you can unmold and cut cleanly while soft (about 24 hours). If you wait for it to be hard before unmolding and cutting it can be so hard you may have some breakage at the bottom of the cut...."

Ah, good point. I edited Post 473 to note this. AnnaMarie said much the same thing early on -- that the soap acted more like cheese when she cut it. I tried beveling the corners of a bar with a vegetable peeler -- and found out THAT wasn't going to happen! At age 2 weeks and counting, this soap is not interested in being prettied up!

Post 473: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=409854&postcount=473

***

"...I have two batches that are younger than most all the others. I haven't tried soaping them up yet, but neither zap anymore. I will have that info to add in a day or two. In both of my batches the temps were usually over 100. ..."

Forgive me, SoapRat, for not remembering the details -- did your two batches stay intact? I was saying to soap cooler because it seemed as if the emulsion might break if the temps were warmer. But that was also during the stage when we were all thinking to stick blend the h*ck out of the soap. That might have given me the wrong impression that temps over 100 F might not be the best. If this soap is not overly temperature sensitive, I sure need to change or delete the tip about soaping cool.

***

"...I do sense a bit of change though, and I am wondering if even going to 30% will still keep the integrity of the soap...."

So, AnnaMarie, I think by this you thinking the 32.5% superlye is borderline too low -- that -30% might not be enough? Am I interpreting your words correctly?

***

"...I use -45% superfat for both... I sundried 1 bar of the sweet almond one, and I think that's the only one that's ready to test...."

Thanks, Btz! I updated Post 473 to show you did your batches at -45%. I am very curious to see how the sweet almond one turns our for you -- that sounds like it could be a lovely soap.

***

"...why do you say not to use a slab mold? That was how I molded my first batch, and that turned out fine...."

Wups, StarDancer! Thanks for bringing this up -- I've edited Post 473 accordingly. I came up with that tip based on AnnaMarie's batch that she poured into a slab mold and it cracked apart internally. She thought at the time that it might be the difference between the log/loaf mold she had been using before vs. the slab mold. See: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=404423&postcount=128 Maybe she has some more thoughts on this issue now that some time has passed.

***

"...you can also simply use rancid oils and completely saponify them, and the soap will be fine as there's no free oils left in it to go rancid.... I've been thinking about that as I've been following this thread, and wondering if I could use some of the oils that are prone to rancidity, if they were done like this...."

And last but not least -- Grayce -- I have been wondering the exact same thing. Time will tell -- we'll just have to try it and see, hey? As far as the references about using rancid oil in soap, I have two squirreled away. I think the second one is the article you have in mind.

See: Adel Y. Girgis. Production of high quality castile soap from high rancid olive oil. Grasas y Aceites, 54:3. 2003. pg 226-233. http://grasasyaceites.revistas.csic.es/index.php/grasasyaceites/article/viewArticle/235

And see: http://handmadesoapcoach.com/dont-throw-out-that-rancid-oil-make-soap/

My understanding of rancid oil is this:

As an oil ages, the triglycerides slowly break down into free fatty acids and glycerin. The FFA's are what make soap trace quicker when using older fats vs. fresher ones with less FFA's. There's nothing really wrong with FFA's in a fat -- the lye has to break the triglycerides apart anyway to make soap, so it's no big deal as far as the lye is concerned.

The FFA's continue to degrade as more time passes, especially if the fat is exposed to oxygen, moisture, any organic contaminants, heat, and light. The ketones, aldehydes, and other chemical compounds that form from the breakdown of the FFA's are what make the fat actually "rancid", meaning the fat has a bad odor, may change color, etc.

These smelly, dark chemicals can be partially washed out of the fat, leaving just the remaining fat and FFA's behind for use in soapmaking. The authors in the first reference washed rancid olive oil with a 3% salt brine before making soap. If the fat is just a bit "off", the fat can just be used as-is for soap making -- this is what the author of the second reference does. A commenter at the end of this "don't throw out rancid oil" article explains how she used rancid fat at 0% superfat, used a hot process method, and added fresh fat as superfat at the end of the cook. Nice touch.

***

Night, all!

PS AnnaMarie -- I got to writing this post, didn't get the scones done like I wanted to, and now it's time for bed. Tomorrow's another day!

Oh, I have one more thing to share. I took a sample from my second superlye batch (the pretty safflower-olive soap) into the shower with me this morning. I washed just my forearm with my usual bath puff and the soap. As a control, I washed the other forearm the same way except I used a well-cured bath soap.

I was a little apprehensive about doing this, to be honest, but scientific curiosity won out over common sense. I didn't use my usual lotion after my bath, so it was going to be pretty obvious to me if my skin was unhappy about being washed with this soap. (It's been a long winter here in Iowa, and I have winter-dry skin to show for it.)

My experiment worked fine. No itchy, no red, no irritation. (whew!)

It's interesting that you are having this same on and off lathering, DeeAnna. I thought about the ash issue but it was when I first lathered it up that I had the best results. Then it was left overnight to dry. My first lather of the night next day was pretty good, but then on subsequent washings within an hour window, it would simply not bubble up. The swayback bar I've been using doesn't have much ash, if any, on it because I've been testing with it on and off. I thought perhaps it had something to do with what was on my hands, in some way, as it wouldn't lather after my hands had been washed several times, but I don't think that's logical. Could it be a surface issue, where the very surface of the soap is fully saponified or somehow lather-ready, but once you wash down a layer or so, it is not?

THank you for your charting and editing our results. I can scarcely keep up with what I made much less all the other batches going on.

I tried again last night with the low stir method and it worked better. It thickened but did not look smooth at the end and then it started getting grainy and separating. I don't know if anyone had this break up with hand-stirring, so I was quite surprised. I SB'ed it and it fully broke but then would not go back together with SB'ing, only with hand stirring. It was super-slick. SOmehow my batch was smaller even though I measured out 2 cups of oil and 2 cups of water plus the lye water. That pissed me off because my design was measured out for the full mold and then I was short! I swear this recipe has it in for me!!

DeeAnna said:

Thanks, Btz! I updated Post 473 to show you did your batches at -45%. I am very curious to see how the sweet almond one turns our for you -- that sounds like it could be a lovely soap.

Click to expand...

Yup, gonna test the sweet almond this evening. Hopefully that one turns out great.

BTW, I took a pic of the coconut oil one this morning before going to the office and trimmed it a bit and saw there are white crystal (?) in it.



I hope you can see it clearly, I couldn't get my camera to focus if I take the pic any closer. Is it lye crystal? If yes, I'm just going to wait for the crystal to disappear before letting my tongue near that soap.

soap_rat said:

Aha! So what's still left to try is -40--or so--and normal water. (wait, maybe cmz's batch was something like that. Another thing to dig for!)

Click to expand...

I poured mine on 2/23/2014 used -30 superfat with a 38% lye solution. I will cut one in a month and see if it is zappy inside. It quit zapping this week which actually suprised me. Just weighed a bar and it has only lost 1 gram in weight and has formed very little ash. I am also very suprised how well it lathers and already has very little slime. I do plan on curing these for min of 6 months.

I've test the sweet almond oil one. It passed the zap test, has a strange salty aftertaste though. Washed my hand with it, more lotion-like than bubble. Will see what happened in week 3.

Have not tried the coconut one yet because of the crystal, will wait a week to see what happened to them.