Replacing water with beer, wine, juices etc.

Lyma · Mar 8, 2013

Hi from Greece. :wave:
Congratulations for the forum. It's like a good soapmaking school.

I've tried some batches replacing water with some juices and i've got some queries:
Α. If a recipe asks for 1000gr water and we want to replace it with fruit juice, or wine or anything else: A juice contains e.g. 90% water and 10% of other components. If we use 1000gr juice, it's like we use 900gr water and not 1000gr which our recipe asks for. I wonder if the appropriate would be to use 1111gr of juice which contains 1000gr of water.

B. The rest 10% of the juice or wine etc. which is not water, how affects the soapmaking process and the final soap. It will evaporate? It will stay unsaponifiable and make the soap soft?

C. In the same recipe, if we decide to replace 50% of water with fruit juice, 500gr water - 500gr fruit juice, and we want a 33% lye concentration: Ιf we mix the 500gr water with the NaOH and the rest 500gr juice incorporate it afterwards, even at thin trace, then the result will be a 50% lye concentration or it will remain 33%? Knowing that the role of water is to diffuse NaOH to the oils, does it really matter if we use all water amount in advance, or to incorporate half portion at trace?

I hope all these won't sound like Greek to you! :lol:

Genny · Mar 8, 2013

When a recipe says how much water to add, it's not necessarily just talking about water. It really means liquid, so that could be water, milk, juice, wine, beer, etc.

For the question on if you can add half of your liquid with the lye & half at trace. Many soapers add a part of their liquid at trace when using milk & wine and it works fine. As far as doing it 50/50, I honestly don't know. I'd think as long as your lye is completely dissolved in the first 50%, it should be okay.

Lyma · Mar 8, 2013

Thanks for your instant reply.
But what happens with that percentage of milk, beer, wine etc. that is not water?
I suppose that this small percentage are the components that provide the benefits of milk, beer, juice to the soap?

And finally, if we decide to use part of the liquids at trace (50/50, or 70/30) will this affects the lye concentration?

Lindy · Mar 8, 2013

When replacing part of your water with another liquid you need to make sure your water is equal or greater than your lye. By adding the rest of your liquid to your soap you maintain your lye concentration.

Lyma · Mar 8, 2013

Thank you Lindy.
As for the first part, you mean if i replace 50% of my water with milk and put the milk afterward, the 50% water part must be equal or greater than the amount of NaOH?

Lindy · Mar 8, 2013

Yes, exactly. It usually ends up that you don't really get 50% for the milk, juice etc. Something I do is reduce the other liquid by 50% to increase the potency of the beer or whatever. Of course that won't work with milk, but for most others it does.

Lyma · Mar 8, 2013

Lindy said:
Yes, exactly. It usually ends up that you don't really get 50% for the milk, juice etc. Something I do is reduce the other liquid by 50% to increase the potency of the beer or whatever. Of course that won't work with milk, but for most others it does.

Can you explain this again, so that i won't get any misunderstanding?

Lindy · Mar 8, 2013

Okay so look at how much lye is called for in your formulation, you will need an equal amount of water to get the lye to fully dissolve. Deduct this amount of water from your total water and use the rest for your other liquid. I know that many people add the other liquid at light trace, but I add mine to the oils before adding my lye solution.

If you want to reduce, or concentrate your other liquid (with the exception of dairy products) put the liquid into a saucepan and cook over medium low heat until the weight is 50% of what went into the pot. I then freeze it in ice cube trays and then put the cubes into ziplock bags until ready to use.

Hope that helps?

Lyma · Mar 8, 2013

You are absolutely understood and helpful.
Last question: Suppose we use 500gr water and 500gr beer. You simmer 500gr beer and use 250gr of concentrated beer, or you use 500gr of concentrated beer? In the first case, will the lye concentration be affected (increased)?

Lindy · Mar 8, 2013

500 grams concentrated beer.

I'm really glad to have helped.

Lyma · Mar 8, 2013

One more part of the puzzle is completed.
Thank you both :smile:

Ruthie · Mar 9, 2013

Is there a rule of thumb for how much beer (etc.) to add? For instance, if one had say 3.5 lbs of oils, would you add reduced beer from one bottle, or 2?

new12soap · Mar 10, 2013

Ruthie said:
Is there a rule of thumb for how much beer (etc.) to add? For instance, if one had say 3.5 lbs of oils, would you add reduced beer from one bottle, or 2?

I believe that you would just enter your recipe, and whatever the water amount, divide that in half. Use half in water to dissolve your lye, then the other half would be concentrated beer. I have no idea how many bottles or cans of beer it would take, but start w twice as much as you need and reduce it down.

Ruthie · Mar 10, 2013

new12soap said:
I believe that you would just enter your recipe, and whatever the water amount, divide that in half. Use half in water to dissolve your lye, then the other half would be concentrated beer. I have no idea how many bottles or cans of beer it would take, but start w twice as much as you need and reduce it down.

Thanks! I used all the frozen beer concentrate (from 2 bottles) I had and the rest water, and I thought it was prolly too much. It was 2/3 to 3/4 beer. I put it in the fridge for 24 hours and it still gelled after I took it out. It was really soft- stuck my finger through it just taking it out of the refrigerator. But it is a week old now and I just washed hands with an end and it feels wonderful and suds up beautifully. I think I want to make more of this! (Have more beer freezing!)

Nevada · Mar 10, 2013

Hi Ruthie, I am curious what kind of beer are you using?

Beer is made from Malted Barley, Hops, Yeast and water. Finished beer is water, alcohol, co2 and solids. Given that I am thinking to add Dried Malt Extract as an adjunct . It has the sugar and solids that I think we want from adding beer to our soap sans the water and CO2. Not sure if we want the alcohol??? I think using DME would be easier than straight beer. Maybe I hate seeing good beer being sacraficed :cry:

Leftover DME makes great Malted Milk Shakes!

Ruthie said:
Thanks! I used all the frozen beer concentrate (from 2 bottles) I had and the rest water, and I thought it was prolly too much. It was 2/3 to 3/4 beer. I put it in the fridge for 24 hours and it still gelled after I took it out. It was really soft- stuck my finger through it just taking it out of the refrigerator. But it is a week old now and I just washed hands with an end and it feels wonderful and suds up beautifully. I think I want to make more of this! (Have more beer freezing!)

soap_rat · Mar 10, 2013

Hi, Lyma:

You asked about what effect using juice, milk beer etc. will have on the finished soap. All of these things contain sugar, so they add nicely to the lather. They do not to my knowledge make the soap softer. Something important to know is that the sugar also makes the soap heat up a lot, sometimes causing a slow "volcano" that can ooze out of the mold! Many people will refrigerate or freeze soaps made with sugary ingredients to control this. There are some good threads in here on making beer soap and wine soap, I advise you to read through them before you try it.

Ruthie · Mar 10, 2013

Nevada said:
Hi Ruthie, I am curious what kind of beer are you using?

Beer is made from Malted Barley, Hops, Yeast and water. Finished beer is water, alcohol, co2 and solids. Given that I am thinking to add Dried Malt Extract as an adjunct . It has the sugar and solids that I think we want from adding beer to our soap sans the water and CO2. Not sure if we want the alcohol??? I think using DME would be easier than straight beer. Maybe I hate seeing good beer being sacraficed :cry:

Leftover DME makes great Malted Milk Shakes!

Nevada, I used Dos Equis. But I have read any lager is good. I understand what you are saying. Been trying to get hubby to drain his empty cans in a container for me but he isn't interested.

Lyma · Mar 10, 2013

soap_rat said:
Hi, Lyma:

You asked about what effect using juice, milk beer etc. will have on the finished soap. All of these things contain sugar, so they add nicely to the lather. They do not to my knowledge make the soap softer. Something important to know is that the sugar also makes the soap heat up a lot, sometimes causing a slow "volcano" that can ooze out of the mold! Many people will refrigerate or freeze soaps made with sugary ingredients to control this. There are some good threads in here on making beer soap and wine soap, I advise you to read through them before you try it.

Thanks Soap Rat. I use pretty low temperatures so i don't have any problem with sugar from juices, wine etc. To be honest i can't be sure if my soaps are gelling or not. The color is uniform, except from the outer surfaces, which are lighter because of the white ash. I'm sure that i'm not getting a partial gel.

Probably i'm not gelling, because of low temperatures and the 90% olive oil i use.
As for soapmaking techniques with wine or beer, i've read ALL the threads here (really helpful) and i'm ready to try it. If i fail i will be a very bad student

.

2lilboots · Mar 10, 2013

ShockTop Pumpkin Wheat Beer! A Belgium style ale brewed with wheat, pumpkin and spices!

Lindy · Mar 12, 2013

Any beer will work and work well.....

Replacing water with beer, wine, juices etc.

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